Perfect Teleport NERF

General Discussion
342

Ok fair point, I think I got my wires crossed there citing a number for something else so my apologies. I’ll edit my previous post to reflect this and will note it took me 33 seconds to do this with more FRW gear.

Having said that, the point is still clear in that teleport is still much faster for anything that’s further than 1 screen away (or requires at least 2 teleports to get to). Diablo 2 commonly has monsters organised in clusters rather than evenly spread out throughout the map so this is still relevant.

And since you took the care to provide some substance, I’ll spell it out.

It’s just a point to compare running vs teleporting speeds only. As we’ve figured out, it takes 3 times longer to run to a spot than to teleport.

If you’ve finishing up on a mob, then approach the next mob that’s 2 screens away, teleporting will take 1 second to reach the next mob where as it will take 3 seconds to run the same distance.

Assuming 30 packs in say a cow level that takes 3 minutes to complete, that’s a potential saving of 1 minute for the sum of time it takes to move from pack to pack, though we have to take into account DPS loss from not losing fortitude, which for a faith + pride glass cannon bowazon, the DPS that fortitude adds accounts for about 16% of damage.

This is based on adding up all damage multipliers from dexterity, ed and all auras:

  • 100 + dexterity(600) + items(300) + auras(288 + 345 + 230) = 18.63x
  • 300 ed from fortitude / 1863 total ed = 16.1%

If it takes 1 second to clear each mob with fortitude, then with simple maths, each mob will take 19% more time to clear with enigma so.

  • 0.19 seconds extra * 30 mobs = extra 5.75 seconds to kill monsters across the level

Net saving using enigma:

  • 60 seconds - 5.75 seconds = 54.25 seconds

So in a 3 minute run, we’re saved 54.25 seconds with switching to enigma.

The problem with TP charges are:

  • If using Naj’s or Spellsteel on switch, then you lose out on up to 85% FCR between wizspike + spirit. Whether it’s still going to be faster than running is up for debate, but it’s definitely slower than using enigma with FCR gear
  • If using charges either way, you need more teleports in a run than the 25 charges that a teleport ammy or circlet offers. 25 charges is only 12-13 seconds worth of teleporting. Even if you’re prepared to have an Ort + gem in a cube and recharge, or keep spare teleport ammys in your cube, that ultimately becomes taxing on your runs in terms of time

For what I’m doing, I want less MF. However, enigma’s speed more than offsets the MF on the item. I’ve tried no MF builds with my javazon before, but enigma just makes things that much faster.

343

I would like to apologize myself for any miscommunication. I’m not here to troll, though I’ll certainly give back what I get. :slight_smile:

You do have a valid point with TP charges, though that was more along the lines of the min/max argument as opposed to practicality.

I think the other primary difference here is a basic approach to the game. I think it needs to be noted first we must establish the “purpose” of the build to debate what the “best” item for the jobs is. D2 gameplay at the end of the day is a rather subjective experience. What is the goal here? Are we trying to min max rune drops rates 3 months into a reset? Are we trying to do the same a year later in NL? Are we making a generalist farmer? Is it a fully dedicated Cow/Chaos farmer or do you prefer versatility? Are you going to try Ubers on this build?

I think we have a fundamental difference in approach here which is making us come to different decisions on what is “best.” I prefer convenience and easy of play over many many hours, and a less area focused farming approach.

So one of the first decisions I make is generally if I’m using an Act 2 merc I’m going to be using an Eth Reapers toll, not Pride. It makes physical immunes much less annoying to deal with due to random merc deaths. (Yes TP eliminates much of this, but again that requires more micro, which I find annoying after a few hundred hours.) However at this point I really don’t need to bother singling things down with magic arrow, or teleing past immunes for generalist farming. I have a LOT of gaming time (on disability) so best for me is very much also something I can play mindlessly for 10-12 hours a day, and still have it be effective.

Another thing to note is I prefer Windforce to Faith typically. I’ve ran both setups and I just love the knockback and the convenience of the extra mana steal. It also means with this setup I’m going to need the extra ED from somewhere.

Overly long story short we are comparing two different builds and one is 1/6th of the price of the other, which is something to keep in mind. In this situation you also have to consider how long you are going to have to farm for those extra 10 HR’s. Best very much comes down to the purpose you use it for. It’s why I think enigma is “overrated” by much of the community. So many people see it as the only “option” but the reality is there are lots of options, people just focus on the one. Personally I don’t even like to swap items between characters, and I don’t use JSP. So very much of what is “best” also has to consider the time investment.

My typical setup costs under 2 HR’s for the build to get started and can farm about everything fairly quickly. The moment I toss in even the enigma I’ve more than tripled the investment into the build. Even if it’s slightly faster, it’s going to take a LONG time to make up for that. Time that I could have just been farming on a sorc.

I think looking at anything in a bubble is a bad way to go about it.

With the setup you listed I’d gladly admit Enigma would indeed be faster for running cows/cs. I’d probably be looking for a bridge to hop off of after a couple thousand straight cow/cs runs using that build, but yeah for that purpose the math checks out for sure. On my 500th run of the week I’m generally well into hold r-click and walk forward occasionally mode though. Which the build I prefer can do in every area in the game, excluding the occasional decoy for souls. My build goalposts are typically self found, ability to deal with any immunity, and I don’t feel like uninstalling the game after playing it a few hundred hours. Hell 90% of my deaths in D2 have came from falling asleep at the keyboard. :stuck_out_tongue:

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344

All good.

The main thing I wanted to answer here for now in a general way is whether enigma can be used to speed up farming (rather than skipping monsters) which the answer is yes.

Whether using enigma fits in with each player’s circumstances or play styles is another discussion, and that’s where those more nuanced questions become relevant. For more mindless play, fortitude + FRW would be less taxing. Enigma is good if you don’t mind concentrating more.

For Pride vs Reaper’s toll, Reaper’s is not a bad idea if you’re worried about extra fast physical immune death lords. Magic arrow is receiving a buff in patch 2.4 to essentially do double its magic damage so with this skill at a high level, it should be quick to kill those death lords. A good valkyrie to help tank hits certainly helps now as well.

As for why others believe fortitude is a must, aside from the people that don’t have the risk appetite for using enigma to move about, well more than likely they don’t have enough off-weapon ED to supplement the damage loss from not using fortitude. You may notice a lot of bowazon users still believe WF + faith merc is superior to all else, which this build has very little off-weapon ED compared to Faith based BiS gear. When building up a bowazon and using fortitude for the first time, you will observe a huge damage boost, but once you build up to a pride and maximise your dex and your merc’s aura, the portion of damage fortitude contributes becomes increasingly smaller relative to the rest of the gear.

345

Yeah not using Faith means I need to put a few hard points into penetrate to push into better hit chances. With strafe getting an AR buff, and magic arrow getting buffed I’m planning to move some points around when the patch hits.

As strange as this sounds I actually was messing around today and swapped over to a treachery with a cat’s eye and weirdly enough at the 120% IAS breakpoint my clear speed actually went up by quite a bit over the Fort setup.

I’d probably be better off with a ias/ed jewel in a M’avina helm and just rock the Fort tbh… but for now I’m just rolling with a g-face with an ED jewel in it that I had sitting around.

I hasn’t realized how nice 2 frame strafes were in D2R. I’m half tempted to hit the 157 breakpoint just for the luls.

346

With Windforce, the critical IAS point is 90% ias, which gives you the maximum strafe IAS and 9fpa with other bow skills. The next 8fpa speed requires 150% ias which is quite steep.

If you change from gface + treachery to mav’s + forti, your IAS will drop to that sweet spot of 90% while getting a good damage boost. Gface is really not that great with multishot since crushing blow only procs on the middle 2 arrows.

2 frame strafe was bugged in LoD; the game (“client” side) shows you shooting at 2fpa but the backend (or “server side”) is calculating your shots shooting at 3fpa. What actually happens then is after it looks like you complete your strafe, you briefly get locked in place because the game things you’re still shooting arrows.

As far as I know, this wasn’t fixed in D2R. Probably worth a try to see if the bug still exists, or it caps you out at 3fpa strafe or it lets you actually shoot at 2fpa now.

347

Hmm everything I can find on it points to 120 ias.

  • 0 ias: 15/4
  • 3 ias: 14/4
  • 11 ias: 13/3
  • 26 ias: 12/3
  • 42ias: 11/3
  • 46 ias: 10/3
  • 80 ias: 9/3
  • 120 ias: 9/2
  • 157 ias: 8/2

This also agrees with the calc that warren (the tech guys that does MrLlama’s stream stuff) made. Which shows…

IAS FPA
0 7+(4)+12
3 7+(4)+11
11 6+(3)+10
26 6+(3)+9
42 5+(3)+9
46 5+(3)+8
80 5+(3)+7
120 4+(2)+7
157 4+(2)+6

It also shows

IAS FPA
0 15
5 14
11 13
22 12
35 11
56 10
89 9
147 8
292 7

For non strafes.

I can test it in game later, about time to turn in for me.

Also yeah the Gface was just something I had sitting around. Was mostly just checking to see how it did with the 2 frame strafe, and I needed some FHR. Was an old zealot helm.

On the 90% thing you might be thinking Faith which gives 31-33% ias from fanaticism thus hitting 120+ I was including the ias on windforce and the jewel it in my calc.

But yeah prob gonna swap to the M’avina/Fort setupafter I can slap a socket on one. Not in a crazy hurry, the Venom on treach is kinda fun to play around wtih atm.

348

Nerfing teleport will slow the game down and make it more boring. Make the other classes more exciting and then balance the monsters. Give players 8 online as well.

Blizzard has been slow and so useless so far we will probably never even get this stuff, with how they’ve handled the servers and updates I have 0 faith in Blizzard to do the right thing for the players anymore.

349

Those would be the IAS breakpoints if strafe were not bugged, but this definitely needs to be tested for D2R.

350

I agree with the stated problem (teleport abuse reducing much of the game to boss/unique monster item farming meta) but the solution should remove the skill’s ability to do so, without changing the skill mechanics. One possibility would be to change the mechanics for item drops, such that skipping everything to snipe a boss results in very poor drops, while doing a full area clear between the last waypoint and the boss results in more/better items (e.g. everything in the River of Flame and Chaos Sanctuary before popping the final seal). That would encourage everyone to engage more of the game content.

351

Thats how it is already XD. clearing areas has always been better.

352

Yeah it’s def working in dr2. There is a very notiable diff between 120 ias and removing my cat’s eye and 100 ias for strafe. It’s getting down to the 2 frame break point for sure.

353

So it is properly increasing your actual DPS and therefore clear speeds, and not just showing that you’re shooting arrows at a faster speed?

Hmm might try this out.

354

Far as I can tell yeah. Things are dying significantly faster. I tested it on packs as well and the arrows all seem to be making contact with the animation. It also greats reduces the movement lockout between strafes. Quite a few videos on youtube coming to a similar conclusion as well.

With Faith you’d probably have to swap a razortail with a goldwrap to test it, but worth testing at least.

1 Like
355

Power creep is just another issue. The game is easy enough as it is. There’s no endgame. Why does it need to be easier?

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356

I just did some testing with a 5 shaeled matri bow and a plain matri bow, both with 100% pierce and +min damage gear, 40% ias from other gear with a level 20 strafe. Killing Eldritch pack from Waypoint average times 11.7 seconds with the 140%ias setup vs 13.2 seconds with the 40%ias setup. Looks promising so far.

357

I totally agree with moving away from the current play that relied on teleporting to increase the cooldown and mana cost of the teleport skill for a variety of armor, builds, and many things unique to the character.

358

Damn this topic really did not need 4 month necro.

How do you even find these useless topics anyway :rofl: ?

1 Like
359

If you touch teleport i throw that game into garbage instantly.

2 Likes
360

Anyway, after FHR and FBF patch 2.4, pvp in Diablo 2R was doomed to go to the trash.

361

Again, no one cares about PvP. Let it go. That ship sailed long ago with the MOBA genre.