Let's Talk About D2r & Streaming

Streaming nowadays can make or break the longevity of a game. Streaming is important because it is free commercialism for a game and that brings in & maintains player base. Streamers are also good with organizing fun community events that otherwise wouldn’t happen for the community.

Sometimes games “look good” on stream or are “easy to watch & understand”, which brings in a lot of streamers. An example of this would be something like a popular fps, which generally always makes for good exciting quality streaming that even your grandmother could understand & follow the moment she began watching the stream.

Then other times we have games that feel great to play but aren’t so great to watch on stream for several reasons. These kinds of games struggle to maintain attention from any serious streamers because they get less views when streaming it. This is bad because streamers are free commercialism which propagates & maintains player base. Not only do we want streamers but we need them.

Now let’s be honest about D2r and how it will look on stream in the long haul. In the beginning we’re going to have thousands of people streaming this game, with a handful of prominent streamers in the mix I’m sure. This will be great initially. The first full release ladder will be exciting on stream. And actually, PvM in even Diablo 2 Legacy streams rather well for a much older arpg, better than most modern arpgs actually. Streaming D2 PvM is easy to understand for anyone who tunes in, even if they don’t know the game well. it is also easy to follow and understand what is happening on the screen. This is all good. Where I see a problem is that in the long haul, no one is going to watch a guy MFing routinely going in and out of games and doing the same thing on repeat every 10 minutes, unless his dialogue is absolutely genius. This leaves the bulk of D2 PvM stream interests within resets and the race/journey to hell completion. ← This can actually be quite entertaining to watch. Well it will be initially. But in the long haul, people will begin to care much less about D2 PvM on stream. It’s gonna start out hot and dwindle.

Of course there are all of these ways for streamers to try and bait views such as through contests, community events, doing something weird like “I am playing through with Poison Dagger Necro!” but this is all try hard gimmick. What will there be left to stream that is interesting in the long haul?

It’s going to be PvP. PvP has always been a large part of what made Diablo 2 what it is, so of course streamers are going to want to stream PvP. The only problem here is that D2 is one of those games that doesn’t look so good on stream in PvP. Playing Diablo 2 PvP and watching Diablo 2 PvP are two very very different things. The action is so jumpy and fast that when you are not the person behind the mouse & keyboard, understanding what the player is doing is not very intuitive at all and that makes things confusing to watch. You also don’t get much of a chance to really see the opponent he is fighting because the stream will only focus on the player’s head who is streaming. This is also no good for quality viewing. Remember, we WANT streamers and streamers are going to want to stream PvP. But streamers are going to need something worth streaming.

My suggestion for Blizzard is that they implement some kind of measure or measures that will allow streamers to get better footage in PvP so that it is easier to watch and follow, and provides a higher quality viewing experience on stream. We need the streaming of end-game PvP for every reason, but that PvP needs to look good on stream or not many will care to watch. A few ideas that I have here:

  1. A player could enter a spectate mode while standing in town, and remotely toggle between the screens of different players dueling in the Blood Moor. So if I were to click the Sorc’s name, I get to watch the Sorc from his screen as if I were playing the Sorc. Then I can click the Necro’s name that he is fighting, and it will toggle me over to the Necro’s screen so we can stream that guy for a minute before clicking on the Farcast Zon’s name to go see & comment on what he is doing. The way things are as of now, there is no way for a Streamer to follow anything or anyone outside of his own screen.
  2. During spectate mode, there is a free movement camera option that allows you to zoom around the Blood Moor and watch what others are doing without actually viewing things from their player screen. It would essentially be a free roam camera that moved around real fast like if a player had 300% frw or something like that. Again, these kinds of option would allow streamers to follow matches with commentary and properly cover things like community organized tournaments. With the way things are now, we can only stand in town while watching two other guys on the mini map. There is no way to cover anything PvP wise, unless you are the person dueling.
  3. If this is even possible, it would be AMAZING to be able to go into that spectate mode and zoom waaay out, far enough to where you could see just about half the Blood Moor, and watch what everyone was doing in their duels at the same time on one screen. ← If that could be done, I would imagine that D2r Team PvP would probably become a very real scene for people to follow. But with the way things are now, trying to stream Team PvP is a mess ^^

But yeah, any enhancements to the viewability of streaming PvP would be excellent.

Cool random idea you clearly put a lot of thought into. And as awesome as it would, id bet my life nothing like this will ever be added. They said they were extremely hesitant to even add auto-gold, so id give up any hope of them actually implementing new features or content but this is still great in theory. The modding community is going to explode even further this time around and im sure lots of cool things will be added via those channels, just not officially by Blizzard.

but its not PVP now… If you look at streamers on twitch, barley anyone is PVPing at any one time. Sure they do here n there, but 99% of the D2 streams are farming of some kind, ubers or speed runs. PVP is fun n all, but D2’s pvp system is terrible and the vast majority of the people who played the game play it for PVM.

It’s just that PvP looks bad on stream so of course streamers will opt to stream PvM and probably avoid PvP streams.

This is exactly what I am talking about though. That makes it look like there isn’t a PvP scene going on and that D2 is largely a PvM game like D3. When in reality that couldn’t be further from the truth. I guarantee you that about a month into the first season we’ll be seeing a plethora of public duel games all over the place at all times of day, and that will go on for years and years and years. It’s just that it’s not going to look good on stream so it will rarely be covered.

If streamers cover much PvP, it will more than likely be the more organized communities through d2jsp that actually hold legit PvP ladders & tournaments. But again, you can’t really stream cover any of it unless YOU are the person in the duel. No one can just sit back and watch guys 1v1 while they shout-cast, and that’s too bad.

Diablo 2 always has had a strong PvP scene. Most of the people I played with were only PvMing specifically for the purpose of building PvP characters that were strong enough to contest top ranks in PvP ladders. We could probably safely say that only about 10% of the community is that hardcore into PvP. Probably another 20% to 30% go into pub duel games somewhat regularly to smash around. And then the rest of the community likely doesn’t care too much about it.

But would they care more if there were serious streams documenting league play and covering the best players in the game? They probably would care a lot more if that were happening.

Ha but when I think about it, if you want to create exciting PvP streams, just PK people in hardcore. I’ll bet a stream like that would get views.

Much as I love PvP in d2 it doesn’t have a massive amount of depth to keep audiences intrigue for very long, I am afraid.

People watched Llamas stream because he was getting closer to grailing, they wanted to be there when he finally found Mang Songs lesson.

If you watch a few ft5 SvS, or Dudu vs Hammer, for the average stream watcher they’ve probably seen everything they need to in order to know the basics of d2 pvp, and who is favoured in which matchups.

Maybe a streamer could support viewers by offering PvP tourneys once a week, but in my eyes pvp is just not that popular in the eyes of majority of the player base.

I have had dozens of irl friends that actively/addictively played d2, I’m the only one that enjoyed pvp. It could be the rules were different on each realm, it could be the pubbieBM that turned them off, but ultimately PvP is a niche subset in d2.

Starcraft and FPS are balanced, designed, around 1vs1 play, and have thousands of times more depth to their multiplayer/1v1. Much as I wish D2R PvP could be more mainstream/ popular streams, I think it very unlikely.

( I don’t think a spectator mode is able to change any of this, it’s just not primarily a PvP game, Llama and nearly every other streamer for d2 don’t partake in PvP at all, and the currently used mods have nearly zero users that PvP.)

The time it takes to grail or do magicfind runs is far longer than most people care to watch d2 pvp, that’s why pvm is so good for streaming. It’s massively time consuming.

Can you imagine trying to stream 6+ hours of pvp content day by day? Editing, etc. I imagine pvm is far easier to edit, etc.

That’s because it IS largely a PvE game like D3.

Anyway… if viewers want to see PvP, then you can be sure streamers would stream it. However, PvP is largely uninteresting in a game like Diablo. In general, gamers want to know about builds, strategies, boss runs, etc.

I consider watching normal softcore very boring.

I will love to watch streamers trying hc without experience in D2 and constantly dying :slight_smile:

Hey Zax I wanted to see if I could ask you some questions about your mod from a previous post can you message me
On discord? Xtimus #4025

Hey, yeah sure, i just added you.

My nickname there is Zod btw.

PVP is great. Quite a few moved on to PD2 to keep it fresh though. LLD 30 tourney - the one I looked for wasn’t there so had to make do with this vid but it’s still entertaining:

But yeah we should see lots of LLD action at a minimum with D2R for quite a while.

I wouldn’t necessarily say uninteresting though. It’s actually pretty interesting for some of us compared to running umpteen Baal or Meph runs etc :slight_smile: I think it would be more accurate to say that it’s unpopular because it takes time to learn and you need to really understand builds and gearing, gear up correctly etc. I’d also agree that things like telestomps and dsyncs can be a confusing viewing experience but with commentators all that can be explained pretty easily.

Problem with this idea… Say you used this same Zoom out feature to find gear or zone transition areas. IT simply would break the game. Don’t get me wrong, It is a Great Theoretical Idea, But this is not something that could be implemented without damaging the overall gameplay as it would be easily exploitable.

Yeah, that would be confusing. “Cheating is allowed?” “Of course it is.”

99% of players don’t play for pvp. I’m one of the 1% that hates the story and want to skip to pvp. It’s still not something I would watch. But then again I don’t watch anything.