Goodbye to the D2 Amazon community

Amazon
163

I think you both missed my first build. Now, that all parties are able to see dps calculations on calculations tab on max roll, have a look:
https://d2.maxroll.gg/d2planner-ptr/990106it
All resistances are capped, 900+ life (I consider 800life minimum in PVM). None of your matri builds come even close to the dps. Again in numbers:
guided arrow dps: 31319 dps
strafe: 20285 dps
multi: 19222 dps

Another note, strafe heavy close quarter combat requires knockback. The feature is absent or comes at great cost with faith. I use my merc and valkyrie as meat shields to mitigate the problem with my Faith GMB. You also need space to pick up stuff and both toms in PVM so 2x8 spaces are free and 2x8 spaces are reserved for cube, portal ad id tomes. 3x1 space goes to gheeds :smiley:

164

I don’t think you looked at my set of links. The WF build I posted there is using similar gear as your link but has more DPS, yet still gets out-performed by faith.

Faith MB with +72: https://d2.maxroll.gg/d2planner-ptr/gc0106np#2
Faith MB with +120max: https://d2.maxroll.gg/d2planner-ptr/gc0106np#3
WF Pride with 160/60: https://d2.maxroll.gg/d2planner-ptr/gc0106np#7

You also should change target from “Target Dummy” to Baal or something else.

165

Great, that you took a liking to the website. You can compare builds there directly in theoretical manner just have to be careful with some stats ( class specific rare items can’t spawn with +2 to all and +3 to a tree , +2/+2 is max). I found out there you could gamble a chromatic diadem of quickness (magic circlet with 30@res and 30% frw) which I gave to larzuk to gamble (50% chance for two sockets). I got lucky with 2 sockets. At that time, I socketed a 13max/15ias and 14max/15ias jewel inside. That change alone at the start to mid ladder made my bowazon very strong until I improved my gear.

166

At you first link, go to calculations tab for the actual dps, you’ll see this:
https://i.ibb.co/JvBg4mm/matri.png
At lvl 99.

Do the same for my build at lvl 92 and you’re going to see this:
https://i.ibb.co/Db8z4rf/windforce.png

At lvl 92.

167

My screenshot is vs hell Baal (50% DR, 55% block), your one is vs target dummy. Please change your target monster.

168

This is your build adapted to PVM with at least 800life and free space to pick up items. To make it comparable I set the lvl to 92. I didn’t touch the resistances at all (they aren’t capped, you’d lose even more dps if you cap fire and light as I would):
https://d2.maxroll.gg/d2planner-ptr/fa0106yz
It does less dps.

Concerning baal as dummy target, you seldomly encounter him. Venom lords at CS are better dummy targets.

169

You haven’t made this very clear so it’s pretty hard to continue. Can you post the links to both builds so that they can be compared side by side?

As of now, the comparisons of these 2 builds makes it clear faith is still the winner.

Faith MB with +120max: https://d2.maxroll.gg/d2planner-ptr/gc0106np#3
WF Pride with 160/60: https://d2.maxroll.gg/d2planner-ptr/gc0106np#7

It could be Baal, Venom Lord or cows, it doesn’t matter. The point is the targets for both builds be set to the same monster for even comparison.

170

This is your Faith MB +120max build made reaslitic for PVM(800hp with tomes, cube and items inside) at lvl 99. Your resistances aren’t capped. I didn’t touch them:
https://d2.maxroll.gg/d2planner-ptr/0k010605
This is my windforce build at lvl 99 with all resistances capped and 916 life:
https://d2.maxroll.gg/d2planner-ptr/ch0106rn

Feel free to tinker, you could take out gheeds or take out tome of ID/Portal by placing them in belt slot but noone does that in PVM.

For comparison’s sake you wouldn’t need to set a target dummy at all then. It’s easier to compare with default values :smiley:
My point was one gets unrealistic overview of how much dps a bowa does in reality when you pick a target you do very little amount of dmg against.

171

You posted 2 screenshots side by side that were targeting different monsters. That’s what I was replying to. It didn’t have to be Baal, just as long as the targets were the same.

172

Yeah, I was confused at first then noticed something was wrong.

173

Again, it’s not a fair comparison. A few things:

Circlet roll probability

That circlet is humongously rare. Look for this by clicking on the circlet and finding the text “Odds of rolling selected values or higher”.

For the perfect roll, it’s a 1 in 77.6 trillion chance of rolling those mods when a rare diadem drops or is gambled.

You are not going to get one of these unless you have a warehouse full of computers running travincal gold find/gambling bots 24/7 for the next 50 years. So, the mods for this has to be notched down to something much closer to the realm of reality.

30% ed → 15% ed
30 str → 20 str
20 dex → 10 dex
20 all res → 10 all res

This brings this to a probability of rolling to 1 in 2.9 billion. Still unrealistic, but not completely improbable.

By contrast, the jeweller’s diadem of speed is only a 1 in 42,000 chance in rolling.

And further more, those super rare +18 damage jewels have a 1 in 9.3 million chance to roll. 6 of them (used in an optimal faith MB build) makes this 1 in 56 million chance, which is much more probable (even after accounting for the fact that jewels can’t be gambled for).

I also tried to make the probabilities somewhat balanced by also introducing the 120max jeweller’s armour variation.

Which leads me to my next point:

Jeweller’s armour

2 sub points:

  • If you’re allowed to use even the lower version of that circlet, then the faith MB build should be allowed to use the full 6 +18 damage jewels, which is better than a 120 max armour
  • As long as we’re being conscious of survivability, you’re comparing a “of the whale” used in the WF build to a “of atlas” used in faith MB, even though we both know the first one is better for stat point efficiency. You’re basically robbing the faith MB setup of 13.333 stat points

IAS

Using the rare circlet also forces you to get IAS from your amulet slot or belt slot. I’ll swap out razortail for noscoil, but the issue there is WF base builds are scarce when it comes to skill points, so you won’t be able to reach even 90% pierce.

Or I could ditch atma’s but then need to introduce faith GMB for a fairer comparison.

I’ll do both.

Stat point allocation

I also set aside 20 stat points extra into strength for the faith MB build so that she can use gface + gores for bosses. Those are points that could otherwise go into dexterity.

Gheed’s

If you’ve got the gear for these builds, then using Gheeds is really not that helpful. Your drop chance for good jewel rare jewels go up, but magic jewels or charms and runeword bases go down. I’d rather have the extra damage and run/walk speed. Leave the holy grain MFing to your sorcs/barbs.

–

See the 4 new build links below to account for inventory space and 900 life:

Amp damage builds:
Faith MB +72 amp: https://d2.maxroll.gg/d2planner-ptr/gc0106np#8
WF 16060 amp: https://d2.maxroll.gg/d2planner-ptr/gc0106np#9

Damage differences are very close. Faith MB has a higher % chance to pierce. Faith MB is the slight winner in my mind considering:

  • damage is like 1% higher for WF but…
  • flexible to use gface for bosses (otherwise can pump an extra 20 points into dex)
  • higher % pierce
  • more survivability due to more skill points available for valk + dodging skills
  • probability of finding gear still much in favour of faith MB

No amp damage builds:
Faith GMB +72 cat’s: https://d2.maxroll.gg/d2planner-ptr/gc0106np#10
WF 16060 cat’s: https://d2.maxroll.gg/d2planner-ptr/gc0106np#11

Faith GMB does more damage by a small margin, but the WF setup has 100% pierce. I’d say they are too close to call.

174

I already said the armor was next to impossible to get 160ed/60ias is mega expensive (jokingly), we were scouting what is possible at absolute best. You can ditch most of the stats on that circlet except for 30frw, 2 sockets and 30%dmg. That is obtainable, I know because I gamble them with my GF barb. 30frw + 3os is a pain to get yourself or to buy, they’re crazy expensive.

And yeah, in the end, they are very close. That was my point, you can’t ditch WF entirely with end game setup.

By the way, what is your actual gear, right now? I am deleting mules for the upcoming ladder. Still have got stuff like upped 192ed titans, stormshield, 20dex raven and more I don’t need. I can give them to you for free.

175

Yeah agreed. I definitely don’t mind theory crafting, but it has to be grounded in some form of realism. I’ve actually gambled some cool 3 socket circlets (life leech, min damage, mf, PDR, etc), just not a jewellers of speed yet.

Side note here would be that the WF build will have a different tempo than faith which is actually cool. I’m actually looking forward to trying out a WF for real now but still want to build out my faith MB spec.

I’ve only played like 20 hours online so far, so I only have a level 30 odd bowazon and a sorc. All my main characters are offline but I plan to migrate to online one day especially once I get some more interest from people for me to play online.

But yeah, happy to take these off your hands.

179

Didn’t know that, and that’s on top of the PvP damage penalty too I assume?

I haven’t thought about PvP for a long time so it’s out of my depth of knowledge at the moment.

180

Pretty much here is how life leach works in pvp:

  1. Say you’re dealing average 4k strike with a GA or a Fury, and you have 20% life leach and 40 life rep.
  2. Considering you crit, that damage goes to 8k but then it goes back to 4k if you are hitting a target with say 50% DR like a Barb or something.
  3. Then .17 pvp penalty occurs = only 680 actual damage.
  4. The 20% life leach will steal 190 health from that strike, but then the pvp penalty applies again to the 190 stolen, making it only 32 life stolen.
  5. In conjunction with a 40 life rep that will generate 4 life per second, if you could land even 2x strikes per 10 seconds on a target, over the course of 60 seconds, that’d be +240 life for replenish and +384 life from leach = +624 life per 60s. ← And that’s even with a low hit ratio for that 60s.

Yeah so if you only have like 10% life leach the gains start to become negligent but if you can tag up around 20% on a Bowa and +40 rep, it is completely worth aiming for over +STR/DEX life mods.

A lot of duels can be elongated when try hards are playing. A good example is vs. a BvA Barb with a shield and max block % who has 2x HOTO on his swap for +40 life rep. Every time you get the Barb near 25% health he’ll just teleport away and lazy play defensively as hell around the Moor until he regens enough health to make another pass. If you can’t catch him to secure a kill, if he’s too slippery, he’ll eventually win. The only way to counter-act this kind of stall play and life rep abuse is to also have life rep and of course life leach. A Zon with peak optimized vita stating who gets up past 4k health on a self BO, will have to have sacrificed life rep/life leach options to get all of that +STR/DEX on gear, and that Zon will eventually bottom out in health vs. the Barb. But the zon who has more like 3k - 3.5k after self BO, who has 20% life leach and +40 life rep, can stall aaaaall day vs. that Barb if they have to, or any other class for that matter, and won’t have to worry about bottoming out on health unless the opponent is really outplaying them.

1 Like
181

I wish that they would bring back the “Bugged” Strafe amazon as an “Easter Egg” - basically you use Enigma to just barely be able to use your bow and Graphically it disappears and you shoot the machine gun arrows out of your fists! Teleport shoot, Teleport shoot. I remember it being the most fun build to play!

182

Great thread, lots of useful info for an aspiring Bowa player. I’d like to throw something in here though

There’s a nice little topic called “Perfect Teleport Nerf” In General, where some people defend Teleport and Enigma to death (I still chuckle at the claim they can’t imagine not doing Nila+Dia+Baal in under 3 minutes, lol).

Anyway, discussion got to the point where someone claims Enigma enables a gg geared Bowazon to reduce CS full clears on P1 from 3 minutes (using Fortitude) to under 2 minutes (using Enigma)

Curious what you, as more experienced Bowa players, think about this statement? Is one more class/build about to fully succumb to teleport?

183

Things to consider:

  1. Using Enigma will obviously allow you to Teleport directly through the River Of Flame and directly through Chaos, hit only seals, kill Diablo, and save/exit make new game. One could say they are “clearing Chaos in under 3 minutes” this way, but this is more like a Sorc MF run where you are aiming at Teleport mobility to get to and hit only bosses and then leave. Bowa isn’t well designed for this. If you want to play like this, using a Bowa is a waste of time. Roll yourself a Hammerdin or roll yourself a Sorc. Bowas are best at high density mass mob killing with Multi. The gear required for Bowa to be strong also doesn’t support much MF. The kinds of drops that Bowas are aiming at with high density mass mob kills, are things that MF doesn’t effect to begin with, like HRs - jewels - charms - runeword bases. If a player wants to speed run boss kills for drops like Shako or CoA, they should be running a Sorc or Hammerdin because the gear they get to wear supports a lot of MF, which is good for speed runs hitting boss objectives and leaving. Bowas want to run ALL of the Chaos, and mow down fields of Cows. When a player finally realizes this, they notice that having Teleport is really unnecessary and it only makes you sacrifice kill speed by losing Fortitude +300% enhanced damage.
  2. Amazons have THE WORST fast cast rate breakpoints out of every class by far. Here is a reference point before I say anything else → Breakpoints - Project Diablo 2 Wiki The problem here is that you can’t efficiently blend FCR for Teleport speed into an IAS based build structure without losing your IAS, ultimately losing kill speed. So if you want kill speed, you’ll be working with 0% to maybe 30% FCR at most, on a Bowa that is able to get a socketed Diadem with 20%fcr and then some rare dual leach ring that also has 10% FCR. There will be no more room on a Bowa for FCR gear unless you want to start sacrificing direct kill power. As you can see from the link listed, you’ll still be Teleporting amazingly slow compared to other classes even with 30% FCR. For those of us who have gone through all of the phases testing these kinds of things within the past 20+ years, eventually you realize: “Well, how about I just ditch Teleport and go for pure kill damage and FRW?” ← This just works better on a Bowa. When you start getting around 120% FRW, it moves nearly as fast as a 0% FCR tele-bowa if we were talking no walls getting in your way, which is the case in open areas like Chaos or Cows. With the 120% FRW and no Enigma, you have a lot more damage output and general kill speed. When you have great kill speed, you just want to walk the River Of Flame, kill everything, move into chaos kill everything, and kill Diablo and leave. There is no reason to skip all the mobs when you’re on a build designed to kill mobs. With a high lvl Multi, it’s very easy to clear River Of Flame and there are usually 2 to 3 packs of champs & specials in just the River alone. Sure, this is going to add +2 minutes onto your run, but what’s important here? Saying “I can clear Chaos in under 3 minutes” doesn’t qualify as an efficiency run when you’re killing roughly only 1/3rd of the mobs between the WP and Diablo, and your boss kills are happening on a Bowa who’s gear allows only about 100% to 150% MF at best. In other words, boasting a 3 minute run like this is nothing to boast about at all when a FRW Bowa with significantly more DPS can kill everything between the WP and Diablo in about 5 minutes, yielding nearly triple the drop rates and kill XP. Remember, the Bowa should be aiming at high density mob kills for the kinds of drops that MF does not effect because Bowas have low MF. Trying to aim at just boss kills is a waste of time as a Bowa when your MF is so low. You want more mob kills and less boss kills as a Bowa. So the FRW based Bowa who takes 5 minutes to clear everything between the WP and Diablo is actually getting more drop rates that it is designed for in that single game, than the Tele-Bowa who does two games in 3 minutes each who deep Teleports into Chaos ignoring mobs, to aim at seals/Diablo with low MF. This is just talking Chaos and not even to mention the bread & butter of Bowa play which is Cows. Teleport is doing absolutely nothing in that zone other than slowing down your kill speed. FRW clears are just as fast in that open field zone as Teleporting.

And we aren’t even going to get into Tele-Bowa in pvp. Anyone who knows this game’s pvp at higher tiers of competition, knows that trying to run anything Teleport related on an Amazon is the fastest way to get yourself tele-stomped. Amazon FCR breakpoints are too slow for pvp against other classes.

But yeah, anyone who is writing or streaming guides about Tele-Bowa in pvm being good, must be old FCR Tele-MFer players who are trying to discover Bowa for the first time. They’ve likely been locked into the niche play of Teleporting in D2 for so long that the idea of not having Teleport seems 100% out of question. However, in the end-game, if they REALLY were to play that Bowazon seriously as a main, they will eventually realize that Teleporting on a Bowazon isn’t optimizing the purpose of the Bowa. What we are looking at here are a few realizations that eventually occur:

  1. Bowazons don’t get to have high MF. They actually get really low MF, which makes them inefficient for speed running boss kills.
  2. My Bowazon is inefficient for speed running boss kills but it is really amazing at high density mob killing like Chaos & Cows or even walking areas like the act 3 jungle, when I am aiming at HR drops or charms or anything that MF isn’t required for.
  3. When I am in these areas with big open fields where all the high density mobs are, I notice that just having A LOT of damage with Fortitude is making faster clear times than trying to use Enigma for Teleport. This is because in these areas that don’t have walls, the FRW moves as fast as Teleport anyway.
  4. Ultimately I realize that my Bowazon is never going to be as efficient at speed run boss kills as a Hammerdin or Sorc, but my Bowazon can match them or surpass them at high density mob killing.

^ This is what happens to any & all Bowa players who really take the time to get into the build structure.

Note that I am not saying Enigma is BAD. I saying that when all comes to push & shove, players will realize that the purpose of the pvm Bowazon is best optimized with the use of Fortitude 300% enhanced damage.

If players want to use Teleport on an Amazon, they should make a Charged Striker, which Enigma synergizes well with that build structure.

But to answer your question directly:

No, Bowazons are just better with Fortitude, in both pvm and pvp.

Unless they fix the bad Amazon FCR breakpoints in some patch, it will always be this way.

At any rate, your question had me curious so I ran a subsample of Chaos & Cow clear times on standard Bowa in this video → D2r - Bowa Chaos Cow Time Test - Twitch Chaos time starts around 13:00, and Cows starts around 21:00. Everything before, after, and in the middle is me talking about stuff.

184

I can speak to this point because I was the one that made this statement.

My current bowazon with faith, pride, harmony and fortitude can clear Chaos right on the 3 minute mark, perhaps with a bit of practice I can take this down to 2:50, or even a bit less if I get lucky with an amp damage proc from a atma’s or crushing blow in my cube.

With a recent test build that I made with fully best in slot gear faith GMB and 160+ faster run/walk before harmony it’s actually not that much faster, I could probably breach the 2:30 mark with it again after some practice.

The bowazons using enigma that I have observed are actually clearing Chaos by killing monsters, not just seal popping or skipping, and are able to breach the 2 minute mark. This is also supportable by numbers in that:

  • Fortitude in practice only accounts for 16% of a faith + pride bowazon’s total DPS, and that’s before you consider the stats on enigma other than teleport vs the other stats on fortitude
  • Enigma also reduces the need for faster run/walk gear, allowing to get those +14max damage charms instead of max damage/run/walk charms, or using highlords instead of cat’s eye
  • Teleport’s velocity is multiple times faster than running. It takes 9 seconds to reach Diablo’s spawn point from the way point for teleport @ 12 frames vs 33 seconds for running. This is not to say that we’re skipping content, but to just say that any travel that is more than 1 screen away (which groups of monsters are usually are) is much faster with teleport than running
  • Teleport is also able to jump certain gaps within Chaos sanctuary to pop seals faster, which indirectly reduces the number of arrows you need to shoot to clear certain areas - because of higher density of monsters when spawning the mobs over areas that haven’t been cleared

That said, to make enigma work, you really need practice using enigma as a glass cannon bowazon which means careful teleports and better hotkey handling. You can’t just change to using enigma and expect instant results.

The build for an enigma bowazon would look something like this:

  • Might + Pride merc
  • Faith bow (GMB for players 1, DB/MB for players 8)
  • Jeweller’s diadem of the magus (45/45 ias with 20% fcr)
  • Enigma
  • Highlord’s (instead of cat’s eye for players 1) or Atma’s (for players 8)
  • Wizspike + Spirit on switch instead of harmony (85% FCR combined)
  • +14 max damage charms instead of +10 max damage/7% FRW charms

The FCR breakpoint of 12 frames per teleport is hit with 105% FCR. Not super fast, but makes it workable. You also have max resists and max block while teleporting.

185

I only read your post just now and it seems a lot of my previous post talks to most of the points you’ve raised.

Your post also seems to be hinged on the assumption that enigma bowazons are just teleporting past everything and going straight to Diablo as much as possible, which is not the case.

I also think that a fortitude with faster run/walk is a very fun build and makes me feel like I’m driving a Ferrari, but an enigma bowazon would also introduce a play style that is also unique and fun to play.