Fist of the Heavens - Patch not enough, IMHO

Paladin
1

I’m a newbie of sorts, so please bear with me.

Honestly, right now it looks useless. Even with the patch’s promises. Unless you focus so much on it, you have to leave out a lot of other possibilities.

I was really hoping for a significant damage boost. Right now, you need to max it out + AT LEAST 20 points spread through its synergies, to do decent damage in Hell. That’s whopping 40 skill points, for something that still has a lot of limitations.

  • A lot of pre-reqs, many of which you’ll probably never use.
  • High mana cost.
  • Just one type of damage, and one that a lot of monsters are immune to even long before you reach Hell.

I’d just like FotH to be useful, as a secondary attack option. Without having to focus over 35% of my build on it. Like, I could be a mostly melee Zealot but also have some decent FotH in case I wanna go ranged for a few? I don’t see how that could be abused, as long as they don’t give it too much of a boost. And it’d make gameplay more diverse.
I’m not even asking for any of its many limits to be reduced.

How about it gets most or all of its synergies from Vengeance, instead of skills we’re unlikely to use such a Holy Shock/Bolt? And those synergies are +14-15% damage? So it’s not as high as putting points on both Holy ones, but it’s still more cost effective? Also, Vengeance is something you’re more likely to use, and wanna increase anyway.

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I know some of you will propose I boost its damage with some extremely rare gear… But that just supports my claim that it requires WAY too much support and effort to be JUST VIABLE. Not even impressive…

At least if I focus on heavy physical damage, I know immunity to that will be less common.

Are there any ways around that, that don’t boil down to “focus even more?” Like “hey, invest in Conviction! Break immunities! Doesn’t matter if that means even MORE skill points and focusing on that aura!”

Guess what. Conviction ALSO has a lot of pre-req’s you’ll never use.

We’re talking 12 points in pre-req’s ALONE, for Conviction + FotH. Plus the 40 I mentioned, plus how high should Conviction be? Say, 10? That’s 62 points. Over half of the total you’ll ever get. There’s only so much of that, you can get from gear.

And, I pretty much reject the idea of builds that totally rely on gear to be viable at all. Like, you NEED Conviction-giving gear.

What if I can never get that item? Because I play offline and luck isn’t on my side, for example? And online, why should I depend so much on trading?

With my “Vengeance-only, large damage synergy” proposal, relying on Conviction makes more sense. You can use that aura to boost the damage from both combat skills.

1 Like
2

With far more prerequisites and a higher level requirement, plus a higher mana cost, Fist should be at least as powerful as Blessed Hammer. Until such time as it is, this game’s balance is not right. I’d like to try it as a backup skill for PI mobs in a Conversion build, replacing Vengeance, but all the prereqs both for this and for Conviction are a put off.

3 Likes
3

Exactly. It’s too “all or nothing.”

BH is so mighty, because people broke what balance that Paladin had by exploiting a bunch of loopholes. It’s clear as day, that the devs never intended for the uber-potent Hammerdin to happen. It goes against the spirit of the class and the game itself. Something that was obviously meant to be just support for a mostly-melee class… To become so overwhelmingly strong.

I mean, one key aspect of the Hammerdin is TELEPORT. ANOTHER CLASS’ SKILL. It doesn’t get any more out-of-character than that.

I’m not saying “don’t play it.” Everyone can do whatever they want. But don’t come to me pretending it’s legit, 'cos it’s clearly not. It’s almost like cheating.

Both BH and FotH are there as backup/secondary skills to keep the melee Paladin from becoming helpless in certain situations. Plus, they make sense aesthetically*. On that, BH as I said is too strong and FotH is too weak.

*BH sucks aesthetically. And it’s not just 'cos of the '00 graphics. They could’ve made the hammer itself more stylish, and give it a less silly and clunky attack pattern.

They OBVIOUSLY based the skill on Thor’s Mjolnir. So, why not make it strike out from the Paladin and then return to him? All in a straight line? It’d hit less targets, but hit them twice most of the time. That’d make the Hammerdin’s brutal damage more acceptable.

And on that, I think it should just be the Paladin’s actual weapon becoming ranged for the attack’s duration.

You can even keep the “all damage is pure magic” abusive edge, as long as it’s not something you can cast by the dozens and spam the whole screen with…

4

FOH was “okeyish” prior patch I have fully FOH spec pala - was only one BIG problem with FOH - delay of cast … which will be removed with 2.4. Pumping Holy Bolt still absolutely not worth it but conviction itself with maxed lighting damage of FOH with lighting synergy was enough to one shot everything but bosses on single player game
Advantage of FOH that you don’t spend much time for positioning and targeting and you have all built-in damage enhancement with conviction. Another advantage of FOH that damage applies instant - unlike lighting damage of sorc or zon which applies by frames
The built itself completed by 70s … so by 90 you can built up relatively cheap secondary attack - smite and pure FOHer will become Vindicator which even prior 2.4 been considered as BM built for PvP and banned from most PvP arena’s

5

Ok, but that doesn’t change what I established. The fact it still requires an ungodly level of investment to be actually useful. Completed by 70+ lvl…

A skill that was clearly meant as secondary support for a melee class, and with such high requirements and limits, should not ALSO need that much work.

How can I become decently melee, like a Zealot, when I have only that much left? And considering the gear and aura requirements to keep FotH viable?

While we’re on targetting… It has one serious issue. It’s far too exacting about line of sight. You can be standing next to a corner, with an obviously clear line of sight, but it acts as if you were around that same corner and then it refuses to cast 'cos “oops, no line of sight.”

Also, how about aura-switching? There’s a significant delay until many auras actually apply, right? If you try to use attacks that require another aura, you then have to switch back to Conviction to make that FotH worthwhile. Is it like HF, needing a whopping 2 seconds to apply? And “aura cast” cannot be shortened by any means.

1 Like
6

You don’t want to have FOH secondary … it just don’t do enough damage unless fully speced
Much like hammer.
FOH gear completely different from Pala-melee gear. You will need skillers rather +ED/IAS- can’t have both :slight_smile: Griffons+Hand of Blessing Light+HOZ is pretty much a must for comfort level of FOHer - plus you have to keep your merc on Eth CV Insight (damn FOH is very mana consuming and with single target hit you will cast it a lot)
I guess what I am trying to say - don’t try use FOH as a secondary for Zealer. You want to something complementary that works with every Paladin built? - use Smite. You already have Fana so you don’t need more than 1 point in Smite and rest into HS

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With all due respect, I know that much. I made that clear. And that’s why I want the skill to become more viable. Which I also made clear.

I find it pretty absurd, that Blizzard said “we want to interest people in more skills, it’s one of our priorities.” Then targeted FotH, but failed to actually fix it. ALL of the mentioned changes in the patch notes are pointless, if you still need like 60+ skill points to make it a decent attack option 'cos its most fundamental trait (base damage) remains pitiably low.

I know this has happened thousands of times with games before, but that still doesn’t make it less incoherent. It’s like bureaucracy or something, keeps them from seeing simple reality.

1 Like
8

yes and no here…
FOH biggest problem in the current state not synergy with Holy Bolt :slight_smile: or problem with how Holy Bolt works (lol it actually DO have use - on second wave in Throne Room on Hell) . Real problem was that FOH not fast enough as a single target spell (cool down timer) … with removing this timers FOH will be just fine - this about 1 hit every 2.4 second or 1 hit every 0.4 second. This will actually stimulate using of FCR gear on FOHer in same way you are using IAS gear on say smiter to get 6FPA smite rate. Lighting skill tree already overpowered (or why you think everyone playing Lighting Sorcs now?) LR easiest to break and Conviction do just that

9

Let me see if I can understand this, as you use terms I’m not familiar with and show a level of analysis that is way above mine.

Yes, making it so much faster is a nice improvement. As per the whole “DPS” logic, increasing an attack’s speed makes it much more damaging if you keep spamming targets with it. I often joke that my Paladin’s melee attacks are more akin to a machine gun’s than a hammer’s :sweat_smile:

And I don’t expect FOH, being a ranged attack, to be as effective as a melee class’ main attack. Either in simple damage, or in dps.

But my point remains the same. If you need to focus most of your build, to make ONE skill JUST VIABLE… It probably means it’s more broken than just being slow.

Even if its cooldown gets severely shortened, it’s STILL delivering mediocre damage and thus mediocre DPS when compared to main melee attack. It should be a decent alternative for occasional situations, or at least for adding some variety to someone’s build. Without requiring 40-60 skill points, 2+ specific, rare items in your gear, and so…

And I wasn’t even mentioning the fact it’s such a mana-guzzler, so it requires you to aim part of your gear toward covering for that.

1 Like
10

Not necessary this way… FOH built aren’t cheap to get pick performance but FOH scales excellent with skillers

11

And that’s the whole problem. It shouldn’t be so expensive, considering its many limitations. I honestly don’t know why you see it as acceptable. Maybe out of habit?

I want my Paladin to be able to be more than purely melee, to have a DECENT ranged option, without needing to devote 60+% of the build to that alone.

Scales excellent? Even for lvl 30, that’s 1350 dam on average. That’s pitiable for Hell. And any suggestion beyond that, further proves my point that you need to invest so heavily to make it work. High lvl Conviction becomes a must, specially in the face of how many lightning immunes/resist monsters you’ll find. So, MORE investment.

I’d be OK with needing to spend about 20 skill points in the whole idea, + get 1-2 gear mods that boost it further.

But between needing Conviction, + so many pre-req’s, + the base dam being disastrous even at lvl 20…

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You missing synergies and conviction effect we are talking for all practical means - around 8-9k lighting damage per hit

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With all due respect, I’m not even sure you understand me.

My whole point, since the beginning, has been “It’s too expensive for what it can do.” I’ve also proven that I’m aware of other stuff that can improve the skill. Synergies, Conviction, gear.

Yet you reply as if I didn’t understand that, and by confirming my point every time. You reply with apparent solutions, that all boil down to “spend more in it.” Aka, “I’m proving your point further, by showing how expensive it is.”

Lvl 30, is supposed to be “pretty strong” by simple common sense. Not “barely viable and it’ll stop being so somewhere during NM.” As FotH is, with that much of an investment.

Maxing it out + most of my gear aimed toward it so it reaches as high a level as possible + Maxing out TWO synergies + Conviction at 10 or higher + Prereq’s…

That’s almost the entire build, both in gear AND skill points… For just one skill. That will STILL have lousy aim AFTER the patch, as far as the notes can tell us.

14

I’ve buiilt a converter from scratch and he’s now in act 2 hell lvl 66 with smite as first backup (for bosses) and FOTH as second backup (for PI bosses and PI/cold immunes, merc has holy freeze). At Lvl 32 it does 1355-1405 which kills things like itchies in a couple of hits. There was one itchy boss it couldn’t kill and I had to use vengeance on that one at under 50% chance to hit. Don’t have conviction yet, but looking for a scepter with conviction and redemption. This may make FOTH respectable as a back up skill for PI’s in the back end of hell. Also no synergies except the prereq 1 in holy bolt. If you were to put 20 in holy shock you’d have 3252 minimum. With conviction this might be OK as a primary although unless there are surrounding undead there’s no crowd control.

15

I just started Hell. Lvl 76. Avg phys dam is about 1250. And since I use players8 (offline), monsters have needed at least 3 hits even by the time I reached A3 in NM. 5-7 is a much more common number.

It’s impossible for FOTH to be a decent secondary option in Hell for me, then, if it takes that much effort to make it match my current phys dam (but in lning, of course). A phys dam that I’m already finding pitiably low in A1 Hell, as regular zombies are making my life miserable enough that I just went back to NM to farm for a better main weapon (runeword). They’re not only taking forever to go down, but my leech is thus too low for decent survival.

Also, I’d need my Zealot to be a lot more efficient mana-wise. Right now, I pay absolutely no attention to mana. I only have the few bonuses that came along with gear I chose for other reasons.

Cost-benefit wise, it sounds like a way better idea to just have lvl 1 Vengeance and see how I fare against phys immunes with it. Add more as needed, and perhaps also invest in Conviction if needed.

Since I learned about the infinite respecs option for offline recently, I paid all prereq’s and got to Conviction 1. I’m yet to need to use either, but I have them at the ready. After a few test runs, I’ll decide if I keep Conviction or just redistribute those points. Vengeance, I’ll keep one way or another. It’s just too useful, and I already got all prereq’s for other reasons.

The main issue with Conviction, aside from its prereq’s, is that it’d need to be pretty high to compensate for not using Fanaticism. Specially with immunes, since it operates at 1/5 efficiency with them. Also, the nice speed bonus would be absent. And speed attack is probably THE most important stat for my entire build.

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If you want really feel FoHer power, try this build on similar project called “path of diablo” with some tweaks to skills/items… if the graphical on this proj was the same as in d2r, I only played this game… overall this is a good balanced project it terms of tweaks/stats/balance/drop. Try it if yo bored with d2r

17

I’ve tested FoH on current PTR.
Its great starter - 1-30 leveling with Holy Fire, at start Nightmare switch to FoH.
Im done Hell Baal with only dual Spirit + Lore (to reach 25lvl Conviction) and 0 death through all acts. Its can be played w/o Insight, mana issues not horrible.
Rn looted my first torch with just swap to budget smiter gear.
Now its Tier-A build that be good at a lot of content.
I will start FoH in 1st D2R ladder to play on HCSSF and HolyGrail mode :slight_smile:

18

I’ve tested FoH on current PTR.
Its great starter - 1-30 leveling with Holy Fire, at start Nightmare switch to FoH.
Im done Hell Baal with only dual Spirit + Lore (to reach 25lvl Conviction) and 0 death through all acts. Its can be played w/o Insight, mana issues not horrible.
Rn looted my first torch with just swap to budget smiter gear.
Now its Tier-A build that be good at a lot of content.
I will start FoH in 1st D2R ladder to play on HCSSF and HolyGrail mode :slight_smile:

How did you get past hell maggot lair? I think everything in there is neither demon nor undead, right? The beetles are also lightning immune, they’ll still have about 70-80% lightning resistance after conviction aura.

19

Maybe a teleport staff? Teleported right to the big maggot at the end probably.

20

Just use tele staff on swap.
All of unconfortable content just skiped because no reason to waste time on it.
Ofc u can, with lvl 25 conv no immunes yet.