Does D2 Really Lack End-Game Content

General Discussion
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I keep seeing comments about the lack of end-game for D2. Does it really have a lack of end game though?

In diablo 2 their are two(ish) forms of end-game. 1. Get better gear. 2. Kill faster.

In Diablo 3 there are the same two(ish) forms of end-game. 1. Get better gear. 2. Kill faster.

The only difference is the types of bosses you fight. In Diablo 2, you fight the same bosses over and over. No new mechanics, no new threats, nothing new to expect. Fights quickly become repetitive. Diablo 3 you’re essentially doing the exact same thing, but you encounter different fights.

So does Diablo 2 truly lack end-game content or do people just have a misconception of the end-game because the end-game fights are always the same?

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2

Diablo 2 lacks endgame. The whole point of Diablo 2 is to improve your in-game character via an 8 hour work day in order to make you forget that you never improve your IRL character at all.

It’s there to give you a sense of accomplishment when you don’t have it in your day to day life.

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To me the gear grind in D2 is more rewarding than getting the exact same gear over and over hoping that the crazy RNG layers align to give you an item that’s actually an upgrade. At least in D2 once I find a given unique or am able to build a given RW, the stats have some variability, but are still what I am looking for, and can move onto the next area my character needs.

GRs “vary” but at the high end, do they really? There are builds that need density to kill and build that are more of elite hunters. Depending on what build style you’re using, you are hunting for specific map layouts that can support the density your build requires and specific mob types that can be herded (or singled out) and killed. Gets pretty repetitive as well. Then there’s bounties that gate crafting mats that are also done as quickly as possible since very few people enjoy them.

So yeah, with Bounties you technically can run through “most” areas in the overworld, including bosses, and then you have the randomly generated GRs that I spoke about above.

But in D2 you have a variety of boss runs and lvl 85 areas to farm. Plus for a lot of people PVP is the end game. Grinding out ideal PVP gear keeps a lot of people going in PVM, and then there’s the fun of the actual PvP itself. Plus there’s the DClone and Uber Trist, trading mini-game, etc.

But you’re often never really “done” until you decide you’ve leveled high enough, or have “good enough” gear, etc. Yes you can get to 99 and eventually get perfect BiS gear.

D3 I feel like “end game” could technically be starting at lvl 70, the entire character and skills progression before 70 is pointless now. SO end game actually starts when you have a full build and several hundred (thousand?) paragon and can start pushing GRs to level gems to make you stronger to push higher GRs to level gems…

Either way it’s a rat race, but I seem to find more enjoyment with D2.

That said I wouldn’t be opposed to adding some “end game” runs in D2, either by taking a few less commonly used areas and bumping them up to lvl 85, or possibly some sort of map system as long as it was well done, balanced with existing areas, and not a GR copy paste. The OG D2 Devs actually experimented with maps some in the Mythos beta once upon a time.

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4

There is no real end game in D2 and the later stages of the game, Diablo / Baal / Hell Cows / Ubers are not equally difficult for all classes so its somewhat non linear and a gray area on if its really end game worthy or not.

End game to me would be something where a character is intended to be in an advanced gearing stage before the “loop” started.

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There’s no endgame and that’s ok. Not every game needs an endgame. If the game itself is fun, people will keep playing it.

This used to be Blizzard philosophy, but they have since changed to making game mechanics that are time sinks and endless treadmills rather than putting all their effort into making the games more fun to play. Remember when the devs all used to play the games they made? Pepperidge Farm remembers.

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Yes. The only endgame, so far, is just grinding for gear…that rarely drops anyways :wink:

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^ This guy gets it. /20char

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Diablo 2 endgame is item grail, PVP and trading. Some would say ubers/dclone as well. (and becoming as efficient as you can possibly be character and knowledge wise)

I don’t care for PvP personally.

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Totally agree. D3 only makes you think there’s an elaborate endgame because of infinite rifts and infinite paragon levels, and RNG on top of RNG. But it’s an illusion. At least D2 is upfront with it. That’s it. That’s the game, 5 acts, very rare items, try all the classes if you want, but stop whenever you want, and come back when you feel like it. Blizzard North wanted to make a Diablo 3 and move on at some point, as things should. But yes, what you do at the end of the game, which we could call endgame, is get better items, get more powerful. It works. The game is finite however.

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10

Be very careful what you ask for. Currently the endgame is just farming, trading and pvp being a big one. You start adding too much end game, scaling monster hp and dmg becomes too much and you kill pvp. You may not care about pvp but it does play a big role for people willing to trade for those big ticket items. Let’s not turn d2r into another greater rift sleeper. I would rather farm meph and Baal runs all day than do another greater rift ffs.

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The selling point of the Diablo series has always been about inherent replayability- not “end game”. There really isn’t an “end” to it, other than completing the Acts in each game.

Diablo 3 failed for a number of reasons, but one of the biggest was that the replayability was almost nill until they released RoS and Rift content- because the entire game was linear as hell until they did so. Every map was exactly the same as before, and the only thing that changed along the way was the RNG of the drops along the way.

Now, who can say in the future with D4 and so forth they won’t have a more expandable system, or are thinking of a more open-ended “MMORPG” type game in the Diablo world?

The squabbling over D2R really needs to cease, because it was never meant to be a complete overhaul of the original D2 release. It was never announced that they would be releasing entirely new content. IMO, it really never needed to, either. Personally, there were many times in the past 20 years that I’d reopen D2 and play it and wish they’d just improve the graphics- and I was more than happy to pay for this release for that alone- and I’m really not alone in wanting it, either.

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12

Agree with almost everything.

This is not a popular opinion, but I liked the direction vanilla D3 was going better than where it actually ended up in RoS, for a couple of reasons. Vanilla D3 could have been saved, in my opinion, whereas RoS ended up, excuse me, trash (my opinion).

In vanilla D3, good items (legendary items) were actually rare and valuable (when they rolled good). Sure, they were trash sometimes, but this was miles better than the actual loot extravaganza in RoS.

I don’t mind a linear game. Hell, D2 sure is. However, I hate rifts so much.

Vanilla D3 was actually difficult, sometimes unfairly so. However, it made you go back in difficulties and acts. It made you want to better your character. RoS added bounties. Kill me. The balance was still not good, but the balance and difficulty in RoS is awful.

This is to name a few. I know, unpopular. But yeah, vanilla D3 wasn’t good, but it had potential (although a very steep mountain to climb), but RoS has none. It’s an arcade game that doesn’t appeal to me whatsoever.

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For me the end game is this: Get gear → mf faster → get better gear → join pvp lobbies for hours of fun, then do it all over again for another character. Also going into games and just randomly PKing people can be fun too.

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I don’t think every game needs of an “end game” structure to be honest. People chooses games based on different points of interest. If everything would try to mimic World of Warcraft, it’d be lame.

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Plenty of end game content! Plenty of different ways to play the game! :slight_smile:

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D3 has stuff you can only do at the end. Follower stories, GRs, and cube just to name off my head.

While both games the core mechanics are kill and gear, D2 is a loop straight from the start, play through game 3 times then over gear it.

And don’t sleep on those follower stories, they are so sad.

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There is no real endgame in D2 and there doesn’t need to be. Endgame in D2 is the endless grind for the best gear and if you like to, PVP/Dueling/PKing.

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Its a 20 year old game, I do not think they had endgame in mind in those days, it was meant to be fun. At that time most game had maybe 25hrs play time maybe 100hrs play time if you played bg1. Personaly i cant think of to many games at that time that did have end game? They where all liner.

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There’s an end to the game. Multiple endings really.

  1. Here for the story? You could stop after normal Baal.
  2. Want to beat the story on multiple difficulties? You have nightmare and hell Baal.
  3. Want to level as high as possible? It’s a ridiculous chore after 92-95ish.
  4. Into pvp? You can do that.
  5. Want to collect everything? You can.
  6. Want harder stuff? Take a character through all the Uber stuff.

D3 was much the same in an over-simplified way. You alternated rifts, greater rifts, and bounties hunting for the gear. You worked to get the best versions of it. All to follow that carrot-on-a-stick to the highest greater rift.

I like both games for similar and different reasons. But both are just grindfests. I think it confuses people that they have to make their own fun after a certain point.

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To be honest D2 is technically an unfinished game. We all can only speculate as to why D2 had no true end-game. Yes, it was uncommon for these types of games to have true end-game systems back then, but a lot of things D2 did was uncommon for the times.

Here however is what people forget. The original devs were not done with D2. One can say there was no end-game because it wasn’t time for end-game because the game was still actively being designed and developed. When Blizzard shut down Blizzard North had a whole 3rd expansion planned for the diablo 2 series. What this expansion included is unknown. But the story of Diablo 2 definitely was not done.

However, when Blizzard North shut down all things Diablo stopped. It essentially became an abandoned game title. Essentially all support and active development stopped. The only thing they left running were the bnet servers.

Blizzard truly tried to revive the whole game title back in 2012 with the release of D3. Which I can say ultimately failed for numerous reasons. However, what made d3 fail for me was the core design change of the game. It felt like there was no character progression was essentially gone.

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