D2R is fundamentally a better game than D4.
D4 has the potential to be a great game but instead they have taken some of the worse features of D3 and have forgotten what makes the Diablo series great. They could have borrowed more ideas from D2 but instead they didn’t.
12 Likes
Welcome back. Sorry uou to give blizzard $70 to learn that lesson the hard way.
9 Likes
Of course, should’ve accepted this with d3…in one generation we lost custom attributes, item attribute requirements, were forced to learn all skills and lost skill diversity, while vanilla d3 actually attempted a similar itemization to d2 it was still simplified and after paragon/leg party era it became even less complex, among many other things…
For people who like d2 it went the wrong direction but the truth is for the average gamer d3 and beyond are much more enjoyable. My 13 year old boy still can’t get into d2r 
probably thinks I’m such a boomer…
2 Likes
This is what happens when a company is driven to make games more by greed than they are from their own passion to make great games that stand the test of time. Instead of innovating new ideas, they seem to think that recycling old ideas in different combinations with the newest eyecandy technology is enough…
Some of the greatest computer games I’ve ever played look like crap by todays standards when it comes to “eye candy”, a few of them are even text based games. It isn’t what the game looks like that makes it a great game, it’s how the game plays that really matters.
When passion trumps greed, that’s how great games are made.
5 Likes
Except, they can make Diablo 2 itemization and leveling/difficulty scaling more casual and forgiving, by upping the lower levels of power and diminishing the effects of elemental resistance and immunities.
Depth and complexity can still be fluid and intuitive, through feedback:
When you hit a giant rock golem, and Resisted! pops up, or your character tells you that your attacks are ineffective, you understand that this opponent resists your attacks.
That doesn’t mean you can’t deal damage to it – immunities could be replaceed with 35, 50, 66, 75 and 90% resistance and still remain meaningful, while not being complete roadblocks.
Character development doesn’t have to be manual even if there’s leveling – you can have kits/packages that gives you a balanced character development and skill selection, by picking attributes and skills/upgrades according to a script, if the player so chooses, and the game can tell the player the upgrade stats for such noob-friendly kits.
And as for itemization, Diablo 2 is already better than Diablo 3 and Diablo 4 in terms of depth vs complexity.
Casters want +skills and to enhance their abilities.
Melee characters wants higher damage on their sword – not more damage on their boots and gloves and rings.
Item slots have focuses and things they can or cannot have, in ways that tries to make sense within the world.
Faster run/walk is primarily on boots.
Faster attack is on gloves.
Though some unique items break the mold.
In terms of complexity vs depth – less complexity and lower numbers is more.
Less complexity and scaling is so much better.
I mean.
I look so incredibly much forward to playing Baldur’s Gate 3.
Diablo 2 was founded on the D&D d20 experience, but scaled too much and got out of hand.
An improvement to D2 would scale less – not more.
Less scaling would make the game mechanics fit a dark and gritty horror survival world where players of different levels can cooperate, far better – though Diablo 2 already had that, where a level 20 and 11 character could meaningfully cooperate in the level 11 character’s world, and scale together through act 1 and 2 to be ready for act 3 and continue to cooperate and scale.
Diablo 4’s scaling and complexity over depth is just atrocious.
3 Likes
Ok, but when did this start? It started at least at the point when Activision bought Blizzard if not earlier. Activision bought Blizzard in 2008. That was 15, let me repeat that, 15 years ago. It may have actually started when Vivendi purchased Blizzard in 1998 and then Activision acquired Vivendi. Acquisitions often destroy existing company culture. I’ve been through quite a few. And here several people are pontificating about this 15 years later as though their rhetoric is going to do anything to change events that have already occurred and are now written in indelible ink in the books of history.
It’s OVER. Blizzard as you knew it and loved it, is gone, probably forever. The Blizzard that exists now, it is Blizzard in name only as is Diablo. The problem is many of you have succumbed to brand loyalty. This is the goal of marketing and they obviously succeeded. The people who made those brands what they were in the past are long gone. This is why, as has been thoroughly noted on these very forums, D3 and D4 are so different from D1 and D2. It’s over.
3 Likes
It comes dow to people having to reinvent the wheel. D3 and D4 should have been d2 but with expanded skill and equipment design. Along with great new graphics and an amazing story.
Instead blizzard said world of warcraft is really sucessful. How can we make diablo more like WOW? D3 and D4 are the answer to that question which is why D2R is the best of the 3 games.
The wheel is round and does its job. Try make yhe newer ones out of rubber or titanium instead of stone and wood. Don’t try to figure out what multicornered polygon should be the new shape. They wont roll.
6 Likes
A lot of people knew this 20 years ago before D4 ever existed. It’s why they didn’t buy into the marketing and streamer hype show.
2 Likes
You can say that, but the track record shows it didn’t go that way and it’s likely not to go that way in the future:
- Diablo 3
- Diablo Immortal (boo’d on stage at BlizzCon even!)
- Diablo 4
I seriously doubt if Diablo 5 ever comes out it will suddenly return to its roots. You have 11 years of precedent there.
1 Like
Sales of Diablo 3 were so high because of peoples expected, and if I recall was promised, to be given experience somewhat similar to Diablo 2, not WoW. To truly understand how “successful” D3 and D4 are compare how many D3 copies has been sold to how many Reaper of Souls expansion, then how many D4. I recall I’ve seen numbers like 30M of D3 and 10M of D4; imo a clear sign of customers’ distrust, and rightly one.
You absolutely nailed it.
I’ve been against all of these bloated numbers for this very reason. Such awful balancing issues pop up.
It’s even an issue in diablo 2…
Just much less of an issue than it is in d3 and 4. It’s absurd in those games.
In D2, The fact that they have to cut the damage in PVP down to 1/6 tells you they messed up somewhere and it got away from them.
If you reduce all of a players damage down to 1/6, and monster Hp down to 1/6 of what it is, PVP and PVE could play on the same damage formula/ruleset.
But damage got out of hand. Perhaps it’s to make the player feel like they are powering up faster? But it’s relative to the environment, (aka monster hp) so it’s just pointless numbers.
( maybe due to synergy system, I don’t know much about d2 history or the changes that were made)
The real effect that it has, however, is that it widens the gap between players of different levels. Which has obvious negative effects on interactions between said characters.
1 Like
yeah no S, no game to date from any company stands a chance against d2 when it comes against player base and just all around customization from all stand points.Might not have the player base of some newer rpg’s but in general it smacks all others
I think d2 being an “old” game is one of it’s strongest features. Many of its “outdated” features and game mechanics are arguably why it’s so good.
Any look at most modern games easily shows newer isn’t always better. Many modern trends could be called negatives and not positives.
One example for me would be potions. D4 has globes and some convoluted generator for getting mana. D2 just has potions. Which is better? I like potions better
5 Likes
I should clarrify D3 and d4 are not terrible games. The just are not as well off mechically as d2. Still both reasonable games worth a playthru for the story. Just not as well balanced with gear or as fun of an end game. Some players really love them and there is nothing wrong with that.
D3, and D4, are a mediocre title. Thats it. Are they terrible “Diablo games”?
Both yes and no.
Yes, in the sense that if you actively look at them as a diablo title(you know, the title sets up the expectation that is a game with that specific formula) then yes, they’re horrible. But in reality, outside of the main antagonist, the fact its a top down arpg… they have almost nothing in common with D2R and d1. Dark Souls 1 has more in common with D2 just because it has a break point system.
Imagine someone part way takes a food product, totally changes the recipe outside of the fact that nominally some of the ingredients are the same, but it vaguely resembles the original. That is what D3 and D4 are.
D2R is just fundamentally a better game than d3, and d4, which just mimics d3. A few concessions were given to get people who liked D2R to buy it. They weren’t many.
D2 classes made in the D3 - i mean D4 engine, and you got a darker color tint. That’s it.
I did not Buy ROS. I did not buy D4. I won’t.
1 Like
I mean I know. That’s why I didn’t waste $70 on it and justify Blizzards crappy design. At this point you might as well keep playing it lol.
The open beta was enough for me to say no thanks to Blizz and D4. I did pre order D3 and it was/will be the last pre order for any game from any company. D2/LOD/R is still an awesome game, not perfect, but better than D3 or D4 for me.
D3 I have not played in years. D4 I may never buy, maybe in several years in the bargain bin for 4.99 or something like that.
1 Like
D2 is far superior. For what ever reason D4 never played well on my machine and it is a newer machine. Still were dropping frames rates all the time even while playing on reduce graphics settings. It played the worst of all games I play. Mostly POE n D2R and Classic WOW.
For me it was itemization. I never once got excited of anything that dropped. I became bored with it and found my mind wondering why? Scaling is absolute horrid feeling all items look the same. UI is trash. It is better than 3 will give it that. But I am done with it and all blizzard games. The last good game they made that I like is D2R and WOW classic which were really made a long time ago by a whole different company than what ever they are today.
None of those tax modern systems. Try Cyberpunk 2077.
D2R is without a doubt a better game.
Its balanced.
Nobody wanted D3. Everyone want Updated D2 with better graphics and maybe expanded capabilities.
I don’t understand why the devs feel the need to hamfist their way through this IP.
D4 was “created by fans of D2” sure… but you can rest assured—the devs were forced by upper management and WoW execs to ruin it in the image of wow.