Community Feedback for Improving Itemization

General Discussion
1628

As for the rare/craft alternative, I am the first to advocate that such items be widely used but the amount of changes to make this viable is enormous.

All points for this were discussed in the topic.

  • Improved weapon types in the cubemain table or remove weapon restrictions in the crafting part
  • Correction of the Lreq column in magicprefix and magicsulfix
  • Implementation of new properties, such as broad access to some curses and auras
  • limiting a large number of weak properties so that they do not appear in the maxlevel column

Changing uniques and sets only has an impact on one dropable item in the game, changing the prefix and sulfix is changing practically all drops in the game and blue salable items in the game.

Starting to release properties with the same effects as runes for magical and rare weapons like CB, OW, PMH, HBT and at a high level req for these items is a start.

If there was adequate communication, I would send the ready-made and improved tables to the staff to be compiled for a PTR.

2 Likes
1629

Ok, two more issues up for discussion.

1st RW Silence: I´ve a Matriarchal Pike (non eth, 6 OS, +3 skills, +15%ED, the base is slow with +20 but avg dmg is 106). When looking for possible usa-cases, there are only 2 options. BotD (what is obviously a waste on a non eth weapon) and Silence (not used a lot with reasons).

Silence
Original Runeword
Dol Eld Hel Ist Tir Vex

Req level: 55
6 socket Weapons

+2 To All Skills
200% Enhanced Damage
20% Increased Attack Speed
All Resistances +75
20% Faster Hit Recovery
Hit Blinds Target +33
Requirements -20% (HEL)
Hit Causes Monster To Flee 25% (DOL)
+2 To Mana After Each Kill (TIR)
30% Better Chance Of Getting Magic Items (IST)
+50 To Attack Rating Against Undead (ELD)
+75% Damage To Undead (ELD)
11% Mana Stolen Per Hit (VEX)

Silence has some drawbacks (albeit not terribly expensive), that I would like to discusse with you.
My goal would be not to make it super strong and not make it really appealing for 6 OS Phaseblades, CB or Zerker axes (as one hand options). So increasing +skill should not be an options. Increasing ED maybe…
As well we do not need another strong RW for Act 2 Mercs. So no auras, no LL, no other crazy CtC stuff should be applied here).

So I would like to develope a RW that helps not really utilized speers primarily. Maybe with a dedicated touch especially for Spearzones?

A) Biggest issue is the included DOL rune with “Hit Causes Monster To Flee 25%”. I would really like to replace this one with another mid-rune. A KO for +10 dex, a Gul for +20% AR on the upper end, a Shael for more IAS, Eth for minus targed defense or another Tir for more MAEK?

If we would not change the DOL rune, we might counteract the flee affect with a big (like 30-50%) slows enemies (should work on bosse and even ubers)? Not sure how this combo would finally workout, but could imagine that would work kind of okayisch.
But then we would be at the affix limit and need to remove something I think.

B) Besides the annoying flee affect, what might be the main issue not using it, in my opinion it will need something special what makes it a bit stronger as well.
I would like to add +5 to “Fend” as an O-skill. Capped at +3 it would still be an improvement for amazons and for all other classes it would opens up the option to build it in a Ghost Spear or Polearm. Would not be a crazy new meta build, but a new interesting option not displaceing our proposed uniques.

So I would propose:

Buffs:

  • Change DOL rune with GUL or Eth rune (therewith remove Hit Causes Monster To Flee 25% and add AR/-Def instead)
    *Change 200% Enhanced Damage to a modest 280% or increase DtU instead to +150% and AR vs. undead from +50 to +150
  • Change * Add +5 to Fend (O-skill)
    [/quote]

Or would this combo be to good in a 6OS 1H weapon already? The +75% @res are not super good already. Could see this beeing used in an Act 5 merc but besides @res adds nothing special to the list so there are far better options in all budget ranges I guess.

What are your thoughts gents?

Will save my second proposal for tomorrow or after this discussion about Silence.

2 Likes
1630

Silence for bows/xbows is a fun alternative for a physical bowzon. The most impressive stats on this RW is the 75 all res and 30% MF. The 200% ED is ok, but definitely not endgame. The best RW bases for this weapon are 6 socketed Hydra Bow and Crusader Bow.

As were at the attribute limit, we cannot add anything new and don’t recommend changing runes at all. To be honest, only thing this RW needs is simply bumping ED to 275%…

Silence
Dol Eld Hel Ist Tir Vex
Weapons
+2 To All Skills
+20% Increased Attack Speed
+20% Faster Hit Recovery
+200% Enhanced Damage
+75% Damage To Undead (Eld)
+50 To Attack Rating Against Undead (Eld)
11% Mana Stolen Per Hit (Vex)
Hit Blinds Target +33
Hit Causes Monster To Flee 25% (Dol)
All Resistances +75
+2 To Mana After Each Kill (Tir)
Requirements -20% (Hel)
30% Better Chance Of Getting Magic Items (Ist)

  • Proposed Buffs:
    • Change E. Damage to 275%
1 Like
1631

Looking at the entire mechanics of the dol rune is also something desired. Cham rune for weapons is another one that in my opinion needs to be reviewed.

Unfortunately I’m against looking at silence as an alternative to bow.

Mist simply turns silence into a small child’s toy
silence rolls 200% ed against Mist Minimum Damage from 325% + 160% Concentration Aura up to 375% + 225% Concentration Aura maximum damage.

75% of the ED wouldn’t do anything for the arches. Maybe it can be considered with a buff to compare with other one-handed things, for two-handed weapons silence is one of the outdated runewords.

2 Likes
1632

Agree, but what if we doubled both IAS/FHR to +40% while also buffing ED to 275%? This would definitely improve viability of two-handed weapon RW as follows…

Silence
Dol Eld Hel Ist Tir Vex
Weapons
+2 To All Skills
+20% Increased Attack Speed
+20% Faster Hit Recovery
+200% Enhanced Damage
+75% Damage To Undead (Eld)
+50 To Attack Rating Against Undead (Eld)
11% Mana Stolen Per Hit (Vex)
Hit Blinds Target +33
Hit Causes Monster To Flee 25% (Dol)
All Resistances +75
+2 To Mana After Each Kill (Tir)
Requirements -20% (Hel)
30% Better Chance Of Getting Magic Items (Ist)

  • Proposed Buffs:
    • Change IAS to +40%
    • Change FHR to +40%
    • Change E. Damage to 275%

Another RW I would like to discuss is Eternity. In addition to adding IAS, I would like to propose we add Reanimate Apparition as it feels thematic. We would then remove Revive Charges and Regen Mana to keep attribute limit the same…

Eternity
Amn Ber Ist Sol Sur
Melee Weapons
Indestructible
+260-310% Enhanced Damage
+9 To Minimum Damage (Sol)
7% Life Stolen Per Hit (Amn)
+20% Chance of Crushing Blow (Ber)
Hit Blinds Target (Sur)
Slows Target By 33%
Regenerate Mana 16%
Replenish Life +16
Cannot Be Frozen
30% Better Chance Of Magic Items (Ist)
Level 8 Revive (88 Charges)

  • Proposed Buffs:
    • Add 15% Reanimate As: Apparition
    • Add +30% Increased Attack Speed
    • Remove Level 8 Revive (88 Charges)
    • Remove Regenerate Mana 16%
1 Like
1633

No matter how hard you look, the comparison is unfair.

If a Cham is still worth approximately one gul then the rune costs are similar

Mist damage is absurdly greater + damage delivered to the mercenary by the aura.
It’s a difference of +4 skills (one difference from the runeword and three more from the impossibility of doing the silence in Amazon’s bow)
Mist has a much more effective CC for the call against flee and blind
AR is bigger

Silence has more mana steal, magic find and greater resistances against more vitality and pierce attacks.

Everything that changes in silence means there is a risk of also changing it to one-handed weapons, or of changing its nature and changing the RW completely and leaving it just for missile weapons.

The first thing I believe is that a review of the number of item sockets and giving the Amazon bows access to the sixth socket, but then it comes to the issue of Larzuk’s sockets.

If you are going to make a change in silence, I believe it should be much deeper.

As for Eternity, I liked the proposal.

1 Like
1634

I think Eternity is not super strong (just build one last week for my next A5 merc) but not super expensive either.
I agree to your proposal. It would be making it a bit more viable without making it crazy.

As for Silence. I don´t see the need for another very good Bow-RW (we have Mist, Faith, Ice and those are good, as well as very good proposal for the uniques besides WF).

Thats why I proposed to customize it more for Spears :man_shrugging:

2 Likes
1635

What about we replace FHR with DS while buffing ED as shown below?..

Silence
Dol Eld Hel Ist Tir Vex
Weapons
+2 To All Skills
+20% Increased Attack Speed
+20% Faster Hit Recovery
+200% Enhanced Damage
+75% Damage To Undead (Eld)
+50 To Attack Rating Against Undead (Eld)
11% Mana Stolen Per Hit (Vex)
Hit Blinds Target +33
Hit Causes Monster To Flee 25% (Dol)
All Resistances +75
+2 To Mana After Each Kill (Tir)
Requirements -20% (Hel)
30% Better Chance Of Getting Magic Items (Ist)

  • Proposed Buffs:
    • Add +33% Deadly Strike
    • Change E. Damage to 275%
    • Remove +20% Faster Hit Recovery
1 Like
1636

Another option what would help, but adding plain DS on several items seems a bit lazy?

That´s why I proposed adding +5 to Fend to it? You did not comment on my proposal specifically. What are your thoughts?

It still would not help to counteract the “Hit Causes Monster To Flee 25% (Dol)” problem though. :man_shrugging:

1 Like
1637

I guess the problem with Silence is it will always be subpar for melee with Dol, but viable for missile weapons. I’m not sure how to fix for spears and your proposal by adding +5 to Fend restricts its use case even more. We have to ask what is the design intent of this RW, I’m not really sure?

1 Like
1638

Charles, I admire the effort you put into discussing every detail of the game that needs to be improved.

That said, let’s look at your idea of making silence viable. In my humble opinion it is possible but the list of things for this to happen, some of them affect the entire dynamics of the game.

  • Amazon arches go from 5 maximum sockets to 6 and without this happening there is no point discussing the points below.

  • Runeword silence would need to change from any weapon to a missile weapon.

  • Zod and Cham Runes have demotion formulas for Jah and Ber, this would increase the price of the Cham Rune making the mist a runeword simply more expensive, but this would affect the entire economy and I don’t know what the players’ idea is about this.

This being the case, Silence doesn’t even need any buff, it would make it a viable option for CC at a lower cost than Mist (which had a price increase due to the obvious increase in value of the Cham rune)

I think changing the nature of the runeword and increasing the sockets wouldn’t cause much controversy, but giving this demotion to Zod and Cham I think it would. I’m in favor of this idea for the simple fact that the rarest rune is not the most valuable and I think that’s wrong.

Trying to make Silence viable by trying to change one or another property of the runeword is simply not realistic.

2 Likes
1639

You´re not sure because there is no reasonable intent in a “silence” theme I can imagine. :man_shrugging:

As said, there is on need for another bow option (even if that means, that a perfect Hydra Bow, Crusader Bow or even Colossus Crossbow would only accept a BotD, what would be nonsense in every scenario). The Zon-Bows can only roll 5 OS. We made plenty of good proposal to the uniques. Here we have no gaps and would not add anything interesting to the games toolbox really! So why even try hard to find anything?

Swords and Axes have plenty of good options as well. BotD and Unbending Will are legit in any situation. A good rolled Archon Staff with +3/3/3 skill will allways receive an Obsession.

Thats the point! Nothing is restricted here. This RW has “no use case” right now! We do not need to improve it for Axes, Swords, Cross-Bows, Bows and Polearms, we can happily focus on Spears over here (even we made a lot of proposal to the uniques, none of them is super super strong). Creating something that would at least making good rolled amazon-spears with +3 skill viable for mid and early-end game is the way to go imho.

So I go back to my original proposal. No harm is done if we replace the Dol with something in the middle range and boost ED and add +5 to Fend as a o-skill (instead of the (Hit Causes Monster To Flee 25% (Dol). Worst thing is that “old guides” may hold missinformation in the interweb…but since this item is not used somewhere, thats not an issue at all.

If we opt for a second TIR we could also add another usefull mod her? I could imagine FRW for example helping spear bearers as well! In a range fo +15-25% maybe.

Everything else is truely a waste of time! :slight_smile:

2 Likes
1640

Great work guys. The d2r devs should work this hard.

2 Likes
1641

If we strip out the rune effects, this is what Silence yields:
200% Enhanced Damage
+2 All Skills
75 All Resistance
4% Mana Leech(11% with Vex rune)
20% Increased Attack Speed
20% Faster Hit Recovery
Hit Blinds Target +33

What hurts Silence is two factors. Firstly, it takes 6 runes so its limited to Phase Blades + Zerker Axes for 1-H Weapons but otherwise is left to be made in 2-H Weapon bases(including Crusader/Hydra Bows). In those cases, the options for players are substantial and often include runewords with much higher ED(BotD + Death come immediately to mind) but also Indestructible(which grants a 50% bonus to base damage). Yet what truly hurts Silence is the Dol rune. This is as bad as if it had Nef’s Knockback so from a Melee perspective, no one is going to want to chase down enemies. It does make it an okay-ish Bow Runeword but Silence is again outclassed by the likes of Faith + Mist and Windforce. Faith and Mist are made in Amazon Bows, hence +3(at minimum) to Bow Skills and with Faith, you can match Silence’s +2 All Skills(not to mention the godly Fanaticism that comes with it). Windforce has godly Max Damage to go with 250% ED(which can be bumped to 300% via Ohm rune) and has built-in Knockback. Silence cannot hope to match any of that.

To help Silence, I recommend the following:

Enhanced Damage: 200 300
Increased Attack Speed: 20 30 or 40
Blinds Target +33 Slows Target 33%

An Enhanced Damage boost is more than warranted. Death has roughly a similar cost and it’s floor on Enhanced Damage is 300%. I feel that is where Silence should be. Bumping Attack Speed couldn’t hurt either since 2-H Weapon bases almost surely could use it. Finally, given that Dol rune causes Monsters to Flee, it’d be prudent to have them Slowed so that they can be easily chased down. I thought about bumping the Slow effect higher but I figure 33% is more than adequate considering Eternity grants the same thing but for way higher cost.

Edit I also thought about removing the 4% Mana Leech for something else, but I haven’t quite nailed down what I’d put in its place.

2 Likes
1642

First, we should avoid changing the rune recipe for making RW… too drastic of a change IMO. With that said, DarkHelmet presented a few straightforward changes that would make Silence viable for all weapons. Replacing hit blinds target with slows target is a good buff, especially against bosses. Also, simply buffing IAS and ED would improve amazon-spears and 2H-weapons in general…

Silence
Dol Eld Hel Ist Tir Vex
Weapons
+2 To All Skills
+20% Increased Attack Speed
+20% Faster Hit Recovery
+200% Enhanced Damage
+75% Damage To Undead (Eld)
+50 To Attack Rating Against Undead (Eld)
11% Mana Stolen Per Hit (Vex)
Hit Blinds Target +33
Hit Causes Monster To Flee 25% (Dol)
All Resistances +75
+2 To Mana After Each Kill (Tir)
Requirements -20% (Hel)
30% Better Chance Of Getting Magic Items (Ist)

  • Proposed Buffs:
    • Add Slows Target 33%
    • Change IAS to +30-40%
    • Change E. Damage to 300%
    • Remove Hit Blinds Target +33
2 Likes
1643

Blizzard, I implore you to hire CharlesJT

1 Like
1644

I Played Mosaic for some Days, thats realy bit overkill.
Change this and make Tyraels to make people happy.
Here is my idea to make it balanced:

Make Fist of fire, Claws of Thunder and Blades of Thunder viable for Swords
Make Mosaik vaible for Swords, Daggers and Shields
Change Mosaik:
+̶5̶0̶%̶ ̶c̶h̶a̶n̶c̶e̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶f̶i̶n̶i̶s̶h̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶m̶o̶v̶e̶s̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶s̶u̶m̶e̶ ̶c̶h̶a̶r̶g̶e̶s̶
+40% chance for finishing moves to not consume charges
When a finisher is executed this way, it now refreshes the expiration timer of the stack
+̶2̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶[̶M̶a̶r̶t̶i̶a̶l̶ ̶A̶r̶t̶s̶]̶ ̶(̶A̶s̶a̶s̶s̶i̶n̶ ̶o̶n̶l̶y̶)̶
+8-12 to Phoenix Strike (NoClass Skill)
+6-10 to Dragon Talon (NoClass Skill)
+20% [Increased Attack Speed] (Weapon only)
Chance to cast rank 12 Fade when hit (Shield only)
+200-250% Enhanced Damage
8̶-̶1̶5̶%̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶C̶o̶l̶d̶ ̶S̶k̶i̶l̶l̶ ̶D̶a̶m̶a̶g̶e̶
8-12% to cast rank (?? 28 maby) Blades of Ice on Hit (should only aply the charge as a cast)
8̶-̶1̶5̶%̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶L̶i̶g̶h̶t̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶S̶k̶i̶l̶l̶ ̶D̶a̶m̶a̶g̶e̶
8-12% to cast rank (?? 26 maby) Fists of Thunder on Hit (should only aply the charge as a cast)
8̶-̶1̶5̶%̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶F̶i̶r̶e̶ ̶S̶k̶i̶l̶l̶ ̶D̶a̶m̶a̶g̶e̶
*8-12% to cast rank (?? 24 maby) Claws of Fire on Hit (should only aply the charge as a cast)

Change Tyrael’s Might:
+1 to Dragon Flight (NoClass Skill)
+1 to all skills
+120-150% Enhanced Defense
+̶5̶0̶-̶1̶0̶0̶%̶ ̶D̶a̶m̶a̶g̶e̶ ̶T̶o̶ ̶D̶e̶m̶o̶n̶s̶
60-80% enhanced Damage
+20% Faster Run/Walk
+20-30 To Strength
Cannot Be Frozen
R̶e̶q̶u̶i̶r̶e̶m̶e̶n̶t̶s̶ ̶-̶1̶0̶0̶%̶
Requirements -30%
Slain Monsters Rest in Peace
Indestructible

I think that can be a direction for a Mosaic-Fix.

OOOPSEDIT:
Shield is overkill for sorc, so no shield - maby palyshield

1645

As I look at Silence some more, it could gain more traction if the 4% Mana Leech attribute was replaced with something else. I haven’t settled on any one attribute but here are some ideas to consider:

Damage Reduced by 20%. Big fat reduction to Physical Damage would be quite solid for a runeword that will be going into 2-H Weapons more often than not and since that means no Shield, Damage Reduction would be a must as I see it.

Damage Reduced by 30. PDR is typically better than %Damage Reduction due to how its applied first before any modifiers(such as Physical Resistance/Curses). This attribute can completely negate incoming Physical Damage, making it quite strong if you can get the value high enough from other gear.

Can Not Be Cursed. I’ve suggested this attribute for Tyreal’s Might and honestly this would make Silence one of the better Runewords out there if it had this attribute alone.

+10 to Max Resistance. The runeword rolls with +75 to All Resistance, hence raising the cap would synergize rather well. Edit: Another thought was to have +10 Maximum Physical Resistance. Considering we’re capped at 50%, a RARE attribute such as this would instantly catapult Silence to the top of the list given how strong this would be in both PvM AND PvP. Just something to consider when it comes to Uniques and what not…

+50% Open Wounds. Considering enemies flee, applying Open Wounds would do a lot to kill them over time and would greatly help Melee against Bosses(notably Ubers where PMH does not apply).

Indestructible. This permits it to be used in Ethereal weapons, thereby greatly enhancing its viability.

2 Likes
1646

That’s a good idea. I think making the character immune to curses is thematic for a RW named “Silence.” This and adding Indestructible makes it so it can be made in Eth weapons. We can simply remove Hit Blinds Target and FHR as those are marginal and keeps the number of attributes the same…

Silence
Dol Eld Hel Ist Tir Vex
Weapons
+2 To All Skills
+20% Increased Attack Speed
+20% Faster Hit Recovery
+200% Enhanced Damage
+75% Damage To Undead (Eld)
+50 To Attack Rating Against Undead (Eld)
11% Mana Stolen Per Hit (Vex)
Hit Blinds Target +33
Hit Causes Monster To Flee 25% (Dol)
All Resistances +75
+2 To Mana After Each Kill (Tir)
Requirements -20% (Hel)
30% Better Chance Of Getting Magic Items (Ist)

  • Proposed Buffs:
    • Add Indestructible
    • Add Can Not Be Cursed
    • Remove Hit Blinds Target +33
    • Remove +20% Faster Hit Recovery
1647

You forget the other modifications on Silence? Namely ED going to 300%, IAS going to 30-40 or did that slip your mind from a few posts ago? XD Unless you want to keep them as is given how strong Can Not Be Cursed and Indestructible would make it :wink: I would use this runeword quite a bit with the Cursed attribute alone as that makes %Physical Resistance a godly attribute due to 100% uptime.

2 Likes