I added Poison Resistance on Aldur Armor because in addition to balancing the Class Sets on +Skills, I also tried to balance the bonus to All Resistance. Each Set gains +50 from the Complete Set but every single set varies considerably on what they provide on any given Set piece. Excluding the Complete Set bonus, here’s what each Set provides Resistance wise:
Griswold and M’avina natively provide +100 All Resistance while the other five yield less despite being Class Sets. Tal Rasha with the Poison buff would yield +105 to All while Aldur’s Poison buff would bring it to no more than +100 with perfect FCL rolls. The Fire buff on Natalya would bring it up to +85 to at most +95 and the other Sets range from +90 to +100.
I’ll be going through my old Class Set topic and finally updating the darn thing with what I’d really like to see. Updated… go look up 2.8 Class Set overhaul
Would you put everything on the full set bonus? Or do we have partial set bonuses? I personally think that we need in general on all set better 2p an 3p bonuses to increase build diversity. Current porposal is this and I´d be happy with the 2p-4p set bonuses tbh!
And 4 OS on the Mavinas Caster is too much! 4 Shaels, 4 fire facets or even 4 15/20-30ED Jewels are a lot on top. The set is not good now, but with +20% fire dmg and+33% pierce it alone would make it viable. It think a roll of 2 or 3 OS would be far enough and we have no rolls on the caster now, making it interesting to look at it at least (in contrast to now).
To straighten things out I would like to propose, that we change the “56% Extra Gold From Monsters” on M´avinas Icy Clutch gloves to a round number like 50 or 60 (always think that this is a roll and double check if so). Otherwise we could change it to a roll (50-60, or even more). Same with the ED on the caster. +188% Enhanced Damage could 190 or better 200?
All together this will make the set very viable imho! But 4 OS on the caster is too much and would make all proposed bow buffs irrelevant again!!! So please not. 3 OS would be more than enough and already on the edge!
I like both proposal the current with stacked DR is really interesting (could imagine a new version of an immortal sorc). But the version with +1 Barb skills on the helmet would not only help GF barbs.
But again. 4 OS on the hammer is a problem imho. I would render a lot of the other elite Maces, Hammers & Scepters useless gain. Just check if you still would use a (new) Stone Crusher or the new Windhammer? The Stone Crusher is a very frequent find. At least we should make it a roll with 2-4 to keep up the excitement. But would prefer 2-3 OS. :man_shrugging:
Would be fine with this one, since the set is not a super solid option now. The FCR on the partial set bonuses (or do we remove that?) are good and the amour lacks a bit of usefulness. Considering that you use the boots you would gain +10 FCR from the 2p bonus. But the 40-50 on poison and lightning res are still not as good as a plain Vipermagi.
But what is your overall proposal? It would be helpfull if you would allways fully show the complete proposal as a discussion point.
I assume we have now this version to judge right?
Armor, weapon an partially the helmet are an issue. Adding 30% FCR and changing +dmg to +200%ED would fix the weapon to an okayish state I guess. Adding skills on the helmet would fix it completely (customizable with the 1-2 OS). The armor with +2/2 skill would be nice. I could see us adding a roll of poison res as DarkHelmet suggests or we could add a roll of 1-2 OS and therewith dual Tals/Jewels would close the poison res gap or anything else you would like to see. Nothing OP but usable and the full set would be great especially for a summoning Dudu.
We centered Natalyas around pdmg and I still like that proposal. Played my last sin with the set and it really lacks AR and dmg. Those buffs would do the trick. That the set lacks fire res is not a problem imho. Not every set needs to be a full service set.
The only thing I would discuss further ist Natalya’s Mark. The weapon is slow and weak. I could se us adding a roll of +10-20% IAS (no rolls on this one yet) and change the partilas 2p set bonus on the weapon from +50% ED to something like +100% or even more? This would only apply to Natalya’s Mark right? If so we could go even higher tbh? What do you think?
Then you have to stick 1-2 fire res SCs in your inventory. Thats not really crazy or too annoying.
So with a focus on pdmg this set would be unique and with the buffs viable. Partial sets with the boots and armo/helmet would be usable and opens up new builds. Great imho. Or do we really need to close every res gap on all sets? I think not, as long as the package is usabel and especially if you can fill the gaps easily with some SCs.
As said, Tals is super great even now and a very viable alternative. That you need 2 or even 3 SC with poison res to cap out all res is a good drawback. The overall package is excellent (high life, big MF and FRC etc.). If you want more dmg you ran DF, Nightwings and Ormus or Griffs etc. (but then you dont have the excellent safety features Tals offers). Even the partials sets are super super.
So please no changes here needed at all! I would just make the game more easy in a spot where it is not needed!
So we went through your current proposals. What about the above mentions proposals to those items?
Any comments on my proposal to those items? So maybe we could end the current discussion on these open topics?
And a new one…or at least a new change proposa.
Would anyone mind if we lower the req. to 76? To be able to use it in a normal playthrough?
So Gents, after we have a current proposal for Aldurs, Natalyas and the The Disciple set. Whats about the gloves and the belt from Orphans call? Next to our running discussion for M’avina’s and IKs?
Currently we have the following proposal, what would make this NM set viable for the given requirements and the fact that G-Face and Wistans are already very usefull.
With the following I would like to make the gloves and the belt viable (not OP but okayisch) for standalone use and maybe as a 2p set (since this ist interesting with the +25% FRW).
Eh give Charles some time before we speculate on what happened to him. Sometimes a vacation from Forum posting is therapeutic and if anyone is guilty of neglecting a topic, it should be me lol. My Class Set overhaul topic hadn’t been updated in roughly 2 years… Anyways, to respond to recent posts…
@Necromant: When it comes to M’avina, I proposed 4 OS on Bow plus 20% Fire/Cold on Belt/Gloves respectively. Fully equipped, a Firemaiden/Frostmaiden can achieve +50% Fire/Cold Damage and -30% Enemy Resistance. Compare that to following Runeword/Unique options:
Fire: HOJ + Flickering Flame + Ormus = Level 16 Holy Fire Aura(123-180 Fire Damage on attack(half that on Bow attacks) + 20-60 pulse damage), Resist Fire aura that offsets Fire Sunder, 20% Fire and -40% Enemy Resistance. HoJ could use a buff but I digress.
Cold: Ice + Nightwing + Ormus = Level 18 Holy Freeze(155-160 Cold Damage(half on Bow attacks) + 31-64 pulse damage and 53% Slow) +70% Cold Skill and -30 Enemy Resistance. Ice could use a modest buff too.
As for the Physical side of things, M’avina doesn’t come close to Faith. If you were to use 3 x 40/15’s(which aren’t cheap), you hit 308% ED + 45 IAS. Faith has 330% ED + Fanaticism(Skill IAS > all). Faith also has more +Skills(+3 Bow + 2 all) compared to M’avina’s proposed +3(+7 with rest of Set so I intend to remove the +1 Amazon Skills given the Helm has +1 All Skills). Other Socket in Bow will have a Nef becaues KB is very strong on Bowzons and Gloves don’t have it. Helm and Chest only grant 1 Socket each, which a Faith Bowzon can beat with a 120/45 Helm alone.
As for Natalya, the Weapon got the biggest changes. Swapping to -%Target Defense from ITD, adding some +Skills and more importantly 3 Sockets would make it a really solid weapon. The Sockets alone shore up its damage and more importantly attack speed but remember that you have Burst of Speed at your disposal(Skill IAS is bonkers), hence the Sockets are more so for Fire/Cold/Light/Poison setups(yet decking out a Physical MA is certainly in the cards). The change to -%Target Defense would be a big boon to Chance to hit because it’ll pretty much remove Attack Rating from the equation, leaving Character Level/Monster Level as the primary factor(exceptions being Ancients + Ubers).
I stand by my Resistance position on Aldur/Tal Rasha/Natalya. Each Set should yield roughly similar All Resistance and not have to rely on charms to make up the difference. I also gave Tal Rasha/Trang-Oul a FCR bump, which ought to help Lightning Tal Rasha the most.
Edit: I highly recommend checking out my Class Set topic that I recently updated. Class Set Overhaul
Absolutely The topic is open again, we can work on everthing else a few days without singel members easily.
But we can not update the OP (but that can wait a few days, we just need to make sure to structure everything).
But don´t you compare apples with bananas? Same like with Tals.
The elite sets lack in dmg compared to your aforementioned BIS gear setups by quite a bit. Thats true but you get alot more safety features with the sets (especially after our proposals).
We all agree that the M’avina’s Caster needs alot to be competitive, but just not crazy much in my very humble opionion!
All the sets are easily available (except a few singel items). The mentioned BIS gear on the other hand is super expensive (or you need to find the right one - e.g. Ormus - and thus should be outstanding in some areas (mainly dmg here). But should always have a relevant (!) drawback (MF and Res in most cases). And thats whats make the game fun. Choices do and should matter!
Please please please do me the favour and tell me, what a 4 OS M-caster would mean to all the Bows in the OP even after our proposed buffs? I see them beeing irrelevant again. And that is something im noth willing to support!
The set bonus is currently the following
+20 To Strength (2 Items)
+30 To Dexterity (3 Items)
+3 To Amazon Skill Levels
+20 To Strength
+30 To Dexterity
All Resistances +50
+100 Defense
+100 To Attack Rating
100% Better Chance Of Getting Magic Items
Display Aura
Helmet
+1 To All Skills (2 Items)
50% Bonus To Attack Rating (3 Items)
All Resistances +25 (4 Items)
Caster
Adds 114-377 Magic Damage (2 Items)
10% Chance To Cast Level 15 Nova On Striking (3 Items)
+2 To Bow and Crossbow Skills (Amazon Only) (4 Items)
Armor
+30% Faster Hit Recovery (3 Items)
Belt
All Resistances +25 (4 Items)
Gloves
Adds 131-252 Cold Damage, 4 sec. Duration (Normal) (4 Items)
+20% To Cold Skill Damage (Complete Set)
Based on this I would propse to increase the ED on the Caster from +188% ED to 200-250% ED and the 4p set bonus from +2 to +3 Bow skills. On top 2-3 OS. This would be enough to be a viable option but not as good as all the BIS option (but solid enough to have fun with it). If we add the magic dmg per lvl on the 2p set it would boost dmg further to be good.
I like the added pierce (but not all to the full set, if we add this to the 3p set - as initially proposed - that would enables partials set to create intersting options with ranged weapons. Does The added “fires immolation arrows” needs to be on the full set or could that be a 4p set bonus? And I wold add some AR.
So thats would be my propsal:
M’avina’s Battle Hymn
Add +2-198 To Magic Damage (2.0 Per Clvl) (2p bonus)
Add +33% Piercing Attack (3p bonus)
Add Fires Immolation Arrows (4p bonus)
Add +20% To Fire Skill Damage (Full Set)
Add 2-3 Open Sockets (M’avina’s Caster)
Change 188% ED to +200%-250% ED (M’avina’s Caster)
Add 2-3 OS (M’avina’s Caster)
Change +2 To Bow and Crossbow Skills to +3 (M’avina’s Caster, 4 Items)
Remove Fires Magic Arrows (M’avina’s Caster)
Change 56% Extra Gold From Monsters to 50-60% (M’avina’s Icy Clutch)
Add +300 Attack Rating (M’avina’s Embrace)
Remove 10% Chance To Cast Level 3 Glacial Spike When Struck (M’avina’s Embrace)
Additionally you would probably need a Raven Frost and a res ring and ammy.
I played the full set and it just felt left behind in the late game. This proposal would make fun im sure off.
Well, that’s an interesting turn of events and seems the discussion can now continue. It will take me some time to catch up… . First thing is to get uniques finalized, then sets. I updated OP based on previous discussion.
Uniques
Metalgrid
Amulet
Req Level: 81
+400-450 To Attack Rating
Level 22 Iron Golem (11 Charges)
Level 12 Iron Maiden (20 Charges)
All Resistances +25-35
+300-350 Defense
I think that is a solid choice. But two thought for discussion. Lvl 10 enchant provides +100% AR, and modes 27-39 fire dmg for 360 seconds. That´s not a super short uptime. Instead of increasing the CtC to 10 we could think about increasing the unsynergized enchant lvl to 15 (146% AR, 46-64 fire dmg, 480 seconds). CtC could be 4-5% that would be enough for a constant uptime. Or will that break some strange Deamon-Machine-Fire-Sorc builds?
Second: Let´s keep HFD on this one. To make the idea of HDF stacking viable we need interesting gear options with this value. If the do not make it stack it wont either then you would have a source of CNB anyway? That could be a solid package. And probably we could lift lvl req. a bit to counteract this (e.g. 42>55 or so)?
Thank you for your precious contribution! Not sure why you hang out in a dead games forum, but have a good day too!
even with said changes, BK is no match for any average dual leech
bk is rare
bk should stand for phys builds as SoJ stands for casters
bk should have 20-30 dmg, not max, not min, flat, the same affix grief has
after the proposed change
Bul-Kathos’ Wedding Band
Ring
Required Level: 58
+1 To All Skills
0-49 To Life (Based On Character Level)
3-5% Life Stolen Per Hit
+50 Maximum Stamina
20-30 damage
This is a great thread. I approve of basically all these changes because they would help improve old items that have long been power-crept out of end game usefulness. I still love these items and have many of them, but they could use some love for sure.
Agreed. How about replace the 3p bonus of +120 Defense on gloves with PMH as shown below? I think this fits better with the glove set bonuses of IAS, LL, ML…
Change +120 Defense to Prevent Monster Heal (Immortal King’s Forge)
I am not reading all that, but I will comment on the revamp weapon part. They need to revamp how melee works first. Attack rating needs to not affect how often a swing hits, but how hard it hits a mob out of your lvl range.
And all melee skills need a cleave option. Full room clears by other classes make melee inefficient and clunky. And a mob walking away from melee should not get missed every single time.
All melee skills, including WW should be able to proc on hit skills. WW not being able to proc a spell is just wrong. The spells that are on hit should have a way to make them damage more as well. I look forward to a chain lightning whirlwind at some point. Or a hurricane spin.
