So what’s the best choice for up coming patch, Chains of honor or Fortitude for my windforce bearing multishot/ guided arrow Bowzon?
I recently got a ber in the halls of pain and a sur in travincal, I feel like a kid in a candy shop!
For self-use, fortitude. Though you could explore using an enigma instead to gain teleport and FRW.
For a might mercenary, chains of honour.
Always get enigma first no matter what.
1 Like
Fortitude will always be best in slot for bowazon mods on it are too good. You dont need enigma carry a harmony bow on your weapon swap and stack run walk scs and you will be zoom zooming across sanctuary. Enigma is not worth it you lose too much damage and you will have to sacrifice gear to get the caster rate high enough to tele comfortably.
1 Like
Enigma has faster clear speeds than fortitude + harmony or even a +72 jeweller’s armour + harmony in Chaos. Haven’t tested in cows but it could be true there as well.
not for bow characters it doesnt. Enigma clear speed doesnt come close to fortitude. You run chaos on a bowazon with fort and with enigma the zon with fort is clearing faster. There is a reason it has been best in slot for this long. You don’t make up the 300% increased physical damage with an enigma it doesnt come close. You dont need the 45% run walk on the enigma you dont tele on a bowzon without sacrificing other needed items for fcr. Simply put enigma is of lesser worth than a fortitude for a bowzon no debate needed.
I have tested both quite a number of times. Enigma is faster despite me not being great at using it with a bowazon and despite not using optimal charms for this build when doing the runs.
Fortitude
Enigma
For damage, enigma can partially make up for the damage using highlord’s wrath (deadly strike and +skills pushing crit chance to 83%) and for BiS setups using 14max damage charms instead of max damage/runwalk charms.
For FCR, Wizspike + Spirit on switch does the trick.
Going into patch 2.4, enigma is going to be even more so faster than fortitude.
Put all of that gear you just mentioned on with a fort and you do more damage this isnt up for debate you would need a massive amount of dex to make up for the lost damage. You can use your enigma if you want man but you aren’t going to be clearing faster. Teleport is the only boon of using enigma with a bow zon. You dont do more damage with enigma than fortitude. If you are going to use enigma you are better off going javazon rather than bow too much damage loss. Plus this is done on players 1 you compare a p8 enigma to p8 fortitude zon and you are clearing much faster with fort.
1 Like
I’m not saying you must use enigma; you can use your fortitude or a jeweller’s armour all you want if you enjoy clearing Chaos at a slower speed…
but to say that fortitude is faster for clearing Chaos than enigma in the face of compelling evidence is at this point factually incorrect.
This isnt compelling evidence or everyone would be doing it, you are using cherry picked gameplay on players 1 and calling it the new meta. Fortitude has been the best in slot forever for a reason it cant be beat damage wise. Play however you want just dont call it the meta when it clearly isnt.
This was never contested. You would have seen that I implied that enigma does less damage in my posts above.
What I am telling you however is damage is not everything. You also need to be able to move about quickly, which is what enigma offers.
Fortitude might do 15% more damage than when using enigma, but considering that with enigma you can move from pack to pack quicker and potentially shoot 4, 5 maybe 6 volleys of multishot before a fortitude + harmony bowazon fires their first shot, that damage loss is more than made up for.
Fortitude by the way is not best in slot for highest damage potential, but it’s a cheap runeword that also offers survivability.
The problem with jeweller’s armours (highest damage potential) is they’re so damn expensive, that’s why you don’t commonly see them.
fortitude is best for max damage setup what are you even talking about. You dont make up the 300% physical damage on any other piece of gear. Stop spreading false information to players. You arent going to get a jewlers of the whale unless you are really rich so that makes fortitude bis for max damage for the average bear.
I already mentioned all this. But it sounds like you’re trying to use mental gymnastics to win an argument by trying to twist the definition of “best in slot” rather than actually have a good faith conversation as it’s pretty clear you’re not reading half the stuff I’m telling you so I’m calling it here.
We can have a good faith conversation i’m just not going to claim 300% damage loss is a reasonable thing. For players 1 sure enigma is probably better because they dont have that much health. But on players 5-8 you are really going to feel that 300% damage loss. I can’t justify using enigma on high player levels but i guess if you are playing solo and want to use it when you have faith pride might merc setup then go ahead. But if you play in a group you are really going to want to have that fortitude on. Even with the new 2.4 synergy changes i still think having that fortitude plus all the added damage is going to be better than using enigma. You can use a teleport amulet with the wiz spike spirit setup you suggested earlier tele to sanc. Once you are in there you really dont need to teleport as your frw and off screen will negate the need to move from pack to pack like you do in the videos.
Since the conversation is about what’s “best in slot”, faith, might and pride should be a given in this conversation, so with fortitude’s 300% ed, you’d have a ~19x damage multiplier and without fortitude a ~16x damage multiplier, hence fortitude accounts for ~16% of your total damage.
With regards to something being “too expensive”, I don’t think a jeweller’s armour in itself is too unrealistic (though to be fair 4x +18 damage jewels are, but you can instead use +30 max damage jewels)…
otherwise I’d then argue that the max damage/FRW charms that fortitude needs to have a fighting chance are also too expensive. Enigma can get away with having plain max damage charms or dual modded +13-14 max damage charms (which are still cheaper than max damage/FRW charms in a trading economy) to really top things off.
On that, there’s 3 things that can narrow the gap for the lack of fortitude:
- Dual modded max damage charms - accounts for ~6.5% of total damage (for the +4max damage extra per grand charm)
- Highlord’s wrath - accounts for ~6.5% of total damage (crit chance of 82% as opposed to cat’s eye’s max of 71% chance)
- More hard points into dexterity (since you get up to +74 strength from enigma, 48 of those points which go towards using spirit) - accounts for ~1.5% of total damage
So yes, 300% ED no matter how you cut it is not a small amount, as even with a build that has very heavy off-weapon ED numbers, it still accounts for ~16%, but because with enigma you are not reliant on faster run/walk so much anymore, discarding faster run/walk gear for more damage can be done to narrow the gap to something much smaller, such as 4%.
If we then consider the 2.4 synergies, that 4% gap will narrow again to the point of vanishing.
And lastly, don’t forget you’re also using Laying of Hands for +350% ed, which help take down the tankier Venom Lords and Diablo, so fortitude’s contribution to the share of total damage is narrowed again.
Enigma also grants +74 to strength, which is what will be used to equip spirit. The amulet slot is also a valuable slot for your DPS as it has IAS on it on top of deadly strike. If you forego using highlord’s wrath, then on top of losing 6.5% DPS from loss of deadly strike, you’re also either:
- Sacrificing 7fpa attack speed, which is a 14% DPS loss (from 7fpa to 8fpa), or
- Changing from Faith GMB base to Diamond Bow or Matri Bow base, which is a 10% DPS loss after accounting for off-weapon min/max damage bonuses
Furthermore, a teleport ammy requires resource and time upkeep to keep topped up, either by repairing with gold or using the cube recipe after each run. That’s a time loss of its own.
Off screen or “blind” killing is not going to save you more time. If anything, this technique risks slowing you down because on top of not being able to see whether there’s any targets ahead at all, multishot arrows have a finite range and you won’t reach targets that are too far out of your multishot range.
The only way off screen killing is going to save you time is when you don’t care about drops, don’t really care if they’re dead and don’t intend to set foot in that area… which most likely do as you’re also popping seals.
As for teleporting inside Chaos, that’s actually where most of the time save is if you consider that teleporting outpaces run/walk speed and Lord De Seis and Infector ends of the map have winding areas that shave off seconds with 1 teleport each way, 2 teleports for a return trip on each part of the map.
There’s also a lot of areas that you cross over more than once in Chaos, which teleport can cross those areas much faster, I think 3 times faster than just running through those areas… based on taking 9 seconds to teleport from WP to Diablo spawn area, versus 33 seconds to run that distance with 160+ faster run/walk from items plus harmony on switch.
The only thing I can give you here is that the enigma based build is a riskier build and takes more skill to use effectively than running around with fortitude. If you’re someone that’s changing their body from fortitude or jeweller’s armour to an enigma, you shouldn’t expect instant results, you really need time to grow into the build and develop that coordination. You will start off using teleport quite conservatively to stay safe, then gradually play more aggressively to yield that time saving.
I can agree that enigma build is way riskier with faster clear times on players 1. I also agree that the jewelers whale armor its self isn’t as hard to get as one would think. However the 40/15 jewels needed to make it work are really expensive and will set you back multiple ber runes for each jewel. Also i wouldn’t personally teleport to get to chaos i was just suggesting a cheaper method for players who don’t have the runes to obtain enigma. Off screening isnt time consuming you are offscreening in the direction you travel into so you aren’t missing drops as well. There are far more efficient characters at seal popping like a berserk barb that are much safer than an enigma bow zon. I can see the merits of enigma after you have highlighted all the relevant information and i respect your opinion but i still have to resolutely remain in the fortitude camp. For me personally its just too much damage and defense lost for an item i can simply replace with a tele amulet.
Not sure which 40/15’s you’re referring to. For a faith bowazon, I wouldn’t use ed/ias jewels as you’re already at 7fpa. ed/max jewels are actually bugged and won’t work as well as expected (basically, the ed portion will only apply to your min damage).
You can use 4x +30 max damage jewels into a jeweller’s archon plate of precision (+15 dex) and do something like 3% more damage than using fortitude. The cost benefit of this is very steep however, but it is possible and would be cool to run for hell cows in particular.
Not time consuming, but you’re also not saving time as what you implied earlier. If you’re going in the direction where you’re wanting to shoot, you’re better off just waiting until you actually get there to position for optimal multishot usage.
Otherwise, you risk shooting in an area with no targets, overkilling by shooting more volleys than necessary or underkilling because multishot arrows are out of range of some targets.
All good.
Onadroig how many times do you have sex with your beloved enigma? 