Barbarian (A5) Mercenary

The A5 mercenary is not a viable competitor to an A2 merc, and in some cases has negative incentives to use (curse overrides).

I have heard frequently that A5 mercs needs battle order and or shout. I strongly disagree. This would be annoying for Barb players who want to play with a fellow barbarian merc. This would be annoying for players who have a nice CTA and +skills. Imagine in multi-player games where five barb mercs are overriding shouts from an actual barb player. In short, think about how much less useful an A2 merc would be for some players if he had a fanaticism aura. Beast would be useless (sorry summon necros). Zealots would lose a might aura that stacks with their own, better fanaticism. This would be the same problem with Shout and BO being in the barb, but more widespread because CTA Exists and is so commonly used.

As a baseline, A5 mercs should use War Cry as their sole shout. This will add AoE stun, which helps him survive.

Bash and Stun need to go. Especially Bash. The problem with Bash is that he knocks back opponents and actually hurts his DPS. Furthermore, he chases his knocked back target and can easily get surrounded in so doing.

I am actually of the opinion that the Barbarian shouldn’t provide any Auras. Instead, he should be built as a melee brawler in his own right that can serve one of two purposes: damage or tank.

To accomplish that, make two different archetypes:

Berserk + Sword Mastery
Concentrate + Iron Skin

An act 5 merc using Concentrate with a modest iron skin can get into the 30k defense range very easily, and go much higher than that. He would be a solid tank for casters and other ranged characters that deal high damage themselves and just need a merc that doesn’t die and can keep baddies entertained.

Berserk adds a lot of value, but makes for a glass cannon mercenary. He can do a ton of damage and beat up phys immunes. He needs to be protected, so pairs well with a teleporter, summoner, or someone who can crowd control. The pay off for some micro is a high damage mercenary that crushes monsters. Sword Mastery would set the DPS above what an act 2 merc can throw out, which needs to happen if they aren’t going to add auras to the player/allies.

Both archetypes would cast War Cry with a 0.25 coefficient (25% of their attacks would be warcry) to help stun and crows control, which is great for the player as well as for mercenary survivability.

As it stands, the Act 2 merc can throw basically 2x or more the damage of an A5 mercenary. The A5 mercenary offers very little in terms gear options that pair well with the players main build (and most of that can be accomplished on an A2 merc, and most of the time more effectively).

Another way to fix some of these issues, which should be done alongside the above changes, is to look at important runewords like infinity and carefully expand the bases that they can be put into.

6 Likes

I think it would be cool to give the A5 Merc the Find Potion / Find Item skill.

It would add some utility during playthrough of the game, since potions are universally used by all classes. MF builds could utilize the Find Item skill to enhance their play-style. And additionally, these skills fit into the Barbarian narrative/theme.

It doesn’t have to be all about DPS. Utility/diversity would be great.

1 Like

I think if they could use some of the AI / programming from the Ancients (Talic, Korlic, Madawc) and could give the A5 merc some proper barbarian skills (frenzy, leap attack, WW, double throw) that would make this merc much more interesting…

Right now, “Bill” is the lamest barbarian in the game… He only knows how to use the most basic and useless barbarian skills. He doesn’t even know how to hold two weapons! He’s just super lame :rofl:

Should be a variety of types of Barb mercs you can hire:

Offensive: Frenzy, dual wield, WW, swords/axes
Defensive: Concentrate, Iron Skin, Stun, hammers/maces
Utility: Shouts and warcries, find item, find potion
Ranged: Double throw, leap attack

some variety, ya know? Like the other Mercs?

4 Likes

What you are asking for is the nightmare for every modder. the way mercs work you have to make a new merc entry for Every possible weapon with every possible shout and skill. and that for all the different level progressions. thats just not realistic. 3 different shouts with the same weapon? sure. but what you are describing is just not realistic.

Battle Command + 2 equippable swords at once. Fixed.

2 Likes

I think if they offer variety, people could choose what kind of act 5 merc you wanted. Like, if you have CTA, don’t get a defensive barb. If you don’t, it might be a good option.

Some more variety is what the act 5 barb needs.

2 Likes

So, originally I just assumed everyone was making too much of a deal about the shout removing curses, that is until I ran the merc to kill Diablo and Baal in normal while trying to use lifetap. I swear, every single time I used the curse, he de-buffed just to spite us both.

He’s nice, but this does get in the way in some cases. It’s a cool trick he has until he hurts you and you wish he would just die already.

3 Likes

I agree any skill that overrides curses should not exist on the act 5 merc

4 Likes

Agreed. A5 merc is less useful now than before.

3 Likes

i suggested 2 possible ways of fixing battle cry overwriting curses.

  1. take battle cry out of the curses category. that would mean it could stack with curses. easy to do, its in states.txt. just delete the “1” in the curses tab for battle cry
  2. use ai to prevent him from casting battle cry when life tap, lower res, amplify damage or decripify is active. i made a thread here: A5 overwriting curses; possible Solution with AI
    to discuss if it is possible to do so with the STATE_ command.
  3. 3 different shouts is realistic. dual wielding and 10 different skills not. take a look in hirelings.txt (use casc viewer to extract the excel files, use excel to open the file) and take a look how you create a merc entry. phrozen keep has some guides to understand these tables. there are only 6 tabs for skills in hirelings.txt. the interface only has place to display 3. for every dual wielding combination a new entry would have to be made in hirelings.txt and in monstats.txt. in addition to that for every different shout with dual wielding combination a new entry would have to be made in hirelings.txt.
    lets say you want him to be able to dual wield swords, axes & maces. and he would also have to be able to single wield them. the combinations would be 1h sword, 2x 1h sword, 1x 1h sword & 1x1h mace, 1x 1h sword & 1x1h axe, 2x 1h mace, 2x 1h axe, 1x 1h axe & 1x 1h mace, 1h mace, 1h axe. for every combination you add 3 different shout types, already we are at 12x3 entries. on top of that the different level states, difficulty , etc. just so that you get an idea how hirelings.txt entries look like, here an example:
    https://i.imgur.com/AnCzijp.png

I like some of the suggestions above and I think a couple may be effectively combined.

In addition to whatever changes are currently in place for the barb merc, maybe they could add a norm/nm/hell option similar to the a2 merc. Example:

-Norm a5 merc additionally uses Find Potion
-Nm a5 merc additionally uses War Cry
-Hell a5 merc additionally uses Find Item

Also insight 2-handed sword might be worth looking into.

  1. I don’t think it is wise to change the entire battle cry skill, and thus introduce more player power into the game, but making battle cry not compete with curses. Being able to stack Decrep/Amp/Weaken/Life Tap on mobs as well as battle cry is a ton more power.

  2. Instead of changing AIs… maybe just don’t give the A5 merc a shout that overwrites curses? Especially when he can use War Cry instead for a neat stun, which would be very unique and not compete with other debuffs on the target.

  3. You don’t need new slots in hirelings.txt for each weapon combination, just different skill loadouts. You don’t have to change the appearance or anything when he equips a sword and a mace. just visually show him wielding a sword and axe as a placeholder (or whatever). In PD2, the barb merc can wield swords, axes, maces of two hand or single variety without having separate hireling entries for each weapons. It doesn’t have to be that complicated. That said, you probably want different hireling/monstat entries for two hander/single weapon vs dual wielders, but please for the love of god can we not pretend that making new rows in an excel sheet is some sort of insurmountable task? It isn’t. Lastly, the UI showing x number of skills isn’t a problem. They will still use skills that aren’t shown on the UI (and you basically just load the passives into the later skill columns so the active skills show up). They could also just… adjust how many skills show on the UI.

Overall, I think having that much variance in a mercenary is a bit much. That is not what is necessary to make them viable. My suggestion in the OP is crafted such that it is extremely easy (trivial, even) to implement and puts the merc in a good position to fill specific roles effectively.

I think doubling down on the varying mercenary types by difficulty is a mistake. They actively moved away from that as much as feasible with the A2 mercs. This would be doing the opposite. It also requires much more work to get mercenaries to use those types of corpse targeting skills.

War Cry is basically the only shout I think would work well on the merc. Taunt and Battle Cry compete with curses. Shout, command, and orders would compete with CTA and actual barbs and end up just being annoying/not wanted, leading to the negative incentive for using them (you are adding annoyance by using them).

To make A5 merc useful, he needs to either be better at a valuable combat role than other mercs, or provide similar utility through auras. I think we have enough aura options. Lets make him shine through his utility and kill speed/tankiness.

a2 holy freeze can stack decripify and holy freeze, which basically is the same effect as decrep and battle cry. not sure how the game mechanics for -enemy damage is, but -damage taken (on armors) is caped apt 50%. would be reasonable to have a similar cap for -enemy damage. slow is capped at 90% or right now. besides that the radius is only something like 3 yards or so, making it only beneficial for the merc.
also, inner sight does not count as a curse too.

Instead of changing AIs… maybe just don’t give the A5 merc a shout that overwrites curses? Especially when he can use War Cry instead for a neat stun, which would be very unique and not compete with other debuffs on the target.

why? thats not even a proper argument. the devs intention probably was to differentiate the a5 from a2 by making him more of a tank, while a2 is more of a damage dealer.
wouldnt have much of a problem with a shout and a war cry a5 merc. but using that as justification for not fixing battle cry is not a proper argument.

You don’t need new slots in hirelings.txt for each weapon combination

thats not true. you have to determine what weapons he can use. and his appearance does not change like your character’s. you define it in monstats.txt. the variations you can make (like corrupted rogues having different armor types from game to game) are completely random. that mechanic can not be utilized for changing appearance for gear.

just visually show him wielding a sword and axe as a placeholder

thats just sloppy.

That said, you probably want different hireling/monstat entries for two hander/single weapon vs dual wielders, but please for the love of god can we not pretend that making new rows in an excel sheet is some sort of insurmountable task? It isn’t.

have you ever made a mod? if you want the appearance to change (which it should, this is not some half assed fan mod, standards should be higher than that) and have skill variety we are talking about a hundred lines for the barb merc alone.

Lastly, the UI showing x number of skills isn’t a problem.

please post prove for the assertion you make here.

They could also just… adjust how many skills show on the UI.

sure, id rather have that solution too. but thats quite alot to ask for an idea from which we havent even shown that it would be balanced or just op. why should the a5 merc have more weapon choices than every other merc and why should he have more weapon slots than every other? the a3 only has the shield, and its auras are quite limited. thats like giving an extra bonus skill/aura

Shout, command, and orders would compete with CTA and actual barbs and end up just being annoying/not wanted, leading to the negative incentive for using them

you could use the STATE_ command which i described earlier to avoid that. though i think that bo is the last thing the barb merc should have.

I didn’t think they were going away from the fact that different a2 merc auras become available later in the game. They are just making it so that as new auras become available, you have access to all of the auras (normal is unchanged, nm and hell both now have 6 options).

I think adding options as you progress through the game is fun and strategic. I do agree about the merc AI having potential problems with with corpse skills though.

New thought:
-Normal a5 merc - battle cry
-Nm a5 merc - battle cry or war cry
-Hell a5 merc - battle cry, war cry or battle orders

That way, you can choose either bo or war cry as you hit end game. If you have a barb in your party, or have a cta, you obviously won’t choose to use the bo merc, but it would be very neat to have that option available.

Sure… and now you want to add another stacking effect which will further increase player power? I’m aware some things stack already. That’s not an argument for making more things stack. That’s how you get power creep when they are simply trying to provide some targeted balancing to a specifc mercenary, and not a massive change to a player skill.

Battle cry isn’t broken. There’s nothing to fix. The argument is to give him a skill that would add value to the merc, not something that actually causes negative incentives to use the merc.

… and you don’t need a separate line in hirelings.txt to do that.

lol.

Yes. I have. And all the rest is why you just let it roll random weapons and monstats, becuase it’s not worth making an actual different mercenary entry for each weapon combo. The A2 merc uses spears and polearms. But he wields a spear. It’s okay. The A1 merc uses a shortbow but can equip longbow. Its okay. Were all still alive.

The UI just shows up to three skills. Currently. They could change that. Or. They could put the passive skills in columns 4-6 and we would all just know they are there. Ideally they show up to six skills in the UI. Even if they don’t change that, you can still give mercs more than three skills.

Maybe you can. I’ve never taken that approach, not sure if it would work. Either way, I don’t think giving them shout/bo/command that they won’t use as some sort of balancer to make them desirable will actually make them desirable. Basically, it would be better to give them something unique that the player doesn’t have easy access to. Shout/Bo/command do not fit the bill.

I think for Battle orders and Shout they could make it so that lower level casts of buff can’t override Stronger buffs of the same type, I think we could all enjoy that especially in baal runs lol

That woukd be swell, for sure. But an A5 merc having those shouts as his special balancing/equalizer skill and then him not actually being to use them sort of negates the benefit of choosing him over others

Well they would be higher then yours at like level 30 by level 98 merc, that’s what other mercs seem to have. Plus they would give you defense buff with shout increasing survivability even further BEYOND. Some builds might not use CTA and instead two weapon swaps. Only way to bring the act 5 merc anywhere near act 2 merc damage potential is by giving them auras lol.

One big advantage if the added BO/BC to the Act 5 merc would be that non-sorceress classes could equip and use teleport staves for longer…

A big problem is that early game, you need everything! You need mobility… You need survivability… Farming all the runes for Enigma is very hard without CtA → which makes teleport staves almost unusable (yes you can store staff /CtA in cube, but that’s a PITA)…

BO/BC on at least one A5 Merc option would provide a lot of utility and fix this problem…

It would be much easier to start a non-sorc character at the beginning of ladder if BO/BC was available on A5 merc… Please consider Blizzard! :pray: :pray::pray::pray:

and now you want to add another stacking effect which will further increase player power?

that would be bringing up a5 to the level of a2 holy freeze. that is not introducing power creep. adding an additional aura via dual wielding would be.

Battle cry isn’t broken. There’s nothing to fix. The argument is to give him a skill that would add value to the merc, not something that actually causes negative incentives to use the merc.

bad argumentation. the value of battle cry is to make him more tanky. similar like a2 holy freeze. both have similar damage reduction ath the skilllevels they set. the implementation was flawed. i have given 2 solutions for that.

he A2 merc uses spears and polearms. But he wields a spear. It’s okay. The A1 merc uses a shortbow but can equip longbow. Were all still alive.

the a1 is not swinging swords, she is using bow types. thats different to having a5 equip bonesnap while showing him use a 1h sword and 1h axe. wouldnt kill me, but would make me role my eyes.

To make A5 merc useful, he needs to either be better at a valuable combat role than other mercs, or provide similar utility through auras. I think we have enough aura options. Lets make him shine through his utility and kill speed/tankiness.

thats what the devs have been trying to do. tankiness for the barb.