Anyone Made a True Summon Necro?

General Discussion
41

its not the fire golem that does the damage its thorns, how many times must i tell u before u understand ??? The reason u would use the fire golem is because its the only golem that can generate aggro and maintain it during the fight before ur merc. This is important because thorns will only do 1/4 the damage if the boss hits ur merc instead of the golem. Any of the other golems dont have the damage or speed to generate aggro before ur merc does and they cant keep the aggro either but the fire golem can because of the holy fire aura. GET IT INTO UR HEAD ITS NOT THE GOLEMS DAMAGE THAT IS IMPORTANT, its about manipulating the boss to hit ur minions instead of ur merc and thereby deal 4 times damage to himself instead of 1 from thorns effect and fire golem is the only one that can do this consistenly when using act 2 merc

Edit: if u would just look at the video i posted earlier u will see that he kills P8 diablo with nothing else than a golem and thorns aura + amp damage, No skeletons, no merc, no revives, no CB from infy and no other auras + he is not helping in any other way and still he kills P8 diablo in 45 sec. Thorns is a pretty significant dps boost overall, and the only thing needed is changing ur act 2 mercs body armour to bramble

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42

Hold up watching the video now and didn’t realize it was Marcoboi he does some great theorycrafting.

So Edge and Bramble stack!!!??? Why? That’s crazy! So it’s level 35 Thorns Aura. I actually didn’t think they stack and never considered this. That is a massive amount of returned damage with Amp.

I’ve liked the effects of level 15 Thorns from Edge alone now I really want a Bramble.

43

Yup they do stack just like dual dream on a tesladin or dual dragon + hand of justice on Holy fire pala. And yes Macrobioboi is very thorough when testing stuff and a pretty good mathematician. No matter how pigheaded people might be they simply cant beat numbers, however with all the different areas in D2 some areas will be better than others with this setup, and for bossing in particular u might want to revive a bunch of Urdars or some other monsters with CB too, but the thorns will still add to the combined dps. The best setup will however be combining thorns with might and conviction.

Edit: U will actually get even more damage from thorns if ur army gets curse with amp or decrep too, in this scenario not only will the boss be amp’d but ur minions wil also be amp’d in which case the boss will deal more damage to ur minions and even more damage to himself due to the double dipping. So now u can actually benefit from ur army being cursed :smiley: making it at pseudo buff

44

Wonder what the true BiS set up is if there are no limits to gear.

Realistic set-up now I’m thinking of staying with the A1 Merc putting on Bramble but using a Faith Bow for the level 15 Fanat. Really think the increase attack speed could be worth it since using a true 50+ Minion army. Also I’m really not a fan of weilding a Beast (less skills) and it’s way less lvl Fanat. I also would use wisp ring for the Heart of Wolverine aura.

In some crazy set up Iron Golem would be made out of Infinity, Beast or Last Wish for Might maybe if not running A2 Merc. I’m not sure. I’d love to run a Giga Iron Golem at some point but that’s latter when I know it can’t die.

Iron Golem made out of Pride with A1 Faith Bow Merc/Bramble now I’m just thinking outloud.

45

This is also a fine setup as long as ur merc stays in range for thorns aura to apply to minions.
U will however miss out on the CB + the reduced defence from conviction on infy, and the -%resistances if using skelly mages. however u dont need to worry about the boss focusing ur merc

46

Yea I guess Iron Golem made from Infinity is required maybe. Until then A2 Merc probably the safe reliable. However an A1 Faith bow Merc sounds good too cause IAS on all those minions with some increased damage att rating is really powerful. Especially on some Revives. Your Revives/Minions are like super Elite packs then.

Also often not considered the A1 Merc is actually huge because of Inner sight which is far better than conviction aura in regards to lowering def. It actually is such a significant amount to helping minions hit.

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¨https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIZM227RABI¨

Here is another extensive test from Macrobioboi on wether or not you should use beast and pride to answer ur questions

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48

You can actually go with the act 2 might merc wearing infy and bramble and make an iron golem from a hustle weapon, its only lvl 1 fana with a low radius but since he is always next to the boss in the fight ur skellies will be close enough to benefit, however u cant guarantee the boss doesnt focus ur merc without using fire golem in which case u wont get the full benefit from thorns but for the clearspeed its fine

49

This is both true and false at the same time :slight_smile: inner sight is a flat number of reduced defence and conviction is % reduced def, this means on weaker monsters with less defence inner sight is superior to conviction but on high defence bosses and monsters conviction outperforms inner sight by quite a lot. Its still great though and people tend to overlook this skill on the merc

Edit: this ofc depends on many factors, like the lvl of inner sight, difficulty setting(normal,nm,hell) type of monster etc. but also the fact that conviction is applied to every single nearby monster while inner sight is only applied to those hit by inner sight + the fact that act 2 merc has access to might on top of the conviction aura

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50

Yeah Inner Sight vs Conviction defense reduction depends on some factors, I think they’re fairly comparable overall though in most regular scenarios.

Say you’re doing purely unique packs in ladder/single player (monsters have lower defense in non-ladder) TZs, the highest regular monster (non-boss, non-Uber areas) defense you’ll encounter is 2675 defense from level 96 (character level 94+ TZs) scarabs (scarabs have 145 AC(H) in monstats.txt which is multiplied by 18.45 in monlvl.txt), or 5350 defense when doubled by a Stone Skin unique.

A level 94 A1 merc will have level 31 Inner Sight without any skill bonuses which is -1715 defense, bringing those scarabs down to 960 defense or roughly equivalent to a 64% defense decrease. Every additional skill level in InS is another -100 defense or roughly equivalent 4% decrease, so it’s not really that far off from level 12 Conv’s -83% defense especially if you can get some skill points on her. Again that’s assuming the highest defense monster type, InS has an even higher equivalent % against anything else.

Now like you say for higher defense (like Stone Skin where InS applies after their defense is doubled) monsters then it rapidly turns to Conviction’s favor except in the case where a monster has skill enhanced defense%, in which case Conviction’s -ED% is simply subtracted from their skill ED% and is effectively negated. There’s only a handful of monsters with skill ED% though, most notably the Ancients with Madawc’s shout and Uber Izual and Uber Baal with their Chilling Armor (fun fact, they were buffed when Blizz buffed Chilling Armor in patch 2.4 :stuck_out_tongue:). In these niche cases InS applies before the ED% so it is highly effective against them in particular.

Having said that there’s also the consideration of the skills mechanics themselves, InS has to be casted which the A1 doesn’t always do consistently at the start of a fight or at all (higher attack speed is better here for that reason, faster attacks = more chances to cast InS over a given period) while Conv is semi-passive, but InS has a greater radius and also stays even if she dies so it can be of some use in scenarios like the Ubers where any merc will likely die. Conv also reduces enemy elemental resistances of course which is helpful for any elemental damage you may have, also makes cold damage chill duration last much longer if the monster isn’t cold immune or has 0 chill effectiveness (cold resist also reduces cold length, so lower cold res = longer cold length).

Aaaaand that’s a pretty long wall of text, so…

TL;DR: I think both are pretty comparable and will get you or your minions to a high/very high chance to hit, giving a bit of an edge to Conviction against higher defense mobs (like bosses and Stone Skin) and overall better skill mechanics being semi-passive without the needing the merc to cast it first. Inner Sight is still a great skill to reduce defense though and has a niche advantage over Conv against the Ancients and Uber Izual/Baal, might also have situational use against the other Ubers or other scenarios where a merc is likely to die and thus not be able to constantly supply Conviction.

I was admittedly somewhat tunnel visioned writing this so I didn’t really go into more detail about the opportunity cost from not having another free aura that comes with an A2 merc or stuff, just comparing InS and Conviction in a vacuum.

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51

Yeah pretty much what my conclusion is too, i actually just said something similar to what u write in ur post in the edit i did just before u posted this :smiley: except i boiled it down a bit. I do btw prefer using the act 1 through both normal and nightmare since it stay alive a lot better than act 2 merc when using budget gear and the inner sight is probably on par with might if not better anyway at these lvls since ur skellies will have a lot better chance to hit

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52

Yeah i had the same thought which is why i included it when i edited the previos post, but another factor u need to consider is the fact that act 1 merc can use a faith bow with a lvl 15 fana aura to compensate for loss of might aura. Like is said earlier act 1 also survives a lot better than act 2 in most scenarios especially if ur merc (act 1 or act 2) is wearing bramble armour + with an act 1 merc you dont need a fire golem to guarantee that the boss doesnt focus ur merc so u will always have the full benefit of thorns on boss fights when using bramble

There is another factor u need to consider when picking the merc u want to use. The OP clearly specified that he wanted a pure summon necro and not the usual fishymancer CE abusing type of playstyle. If u are using CE u are mostly just interested in getting the first kill as fast as possible to start chaining CE, to do this u probably want act 2 merc since they do more damage and its often the merc and not ur minions that gets the first kill. This is also why with this playstyle u should never wear a pride or have a pride iron golem and u should probably avoid using cold mages . Pride has freezes target in which case the targeted monster will shatter and delay ur CE chaining untill u get a corpse. Now if u want a pure summoner lazy playstyle this doesnt really matter as much and act 1 merc will be perfectly fine too but in some scenarios act 2 will ofc still be a little bit better but the difference is not as high as some people think when it comes to clearspeed, the act 2 will however make the boss kill faster if he can survive due to th CB from infy, this can be done too by reviving some CB monsters like Urdars in river of flame

53

i made a pure summon druid. had to stop at hell diablo lol.

everything was getting deleted instantly

54

Diablo or ur minions? :smiley: i think i know the answer though

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55

I would like to play a pure Summon Necro with a pure Summon Druid together with someone. A massive army of minions against the rest of hell.

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56

The pure summon druid is a different beast and requires BIS gear just to be moderately decent but some people like the challenge, however it works pretty well as a hybrid. Me personally prefer running Fury/summoner with a self wielding reaper’s toll, this build is definitely on par if not better than the summon necro + CE in some scenarios, the difference being u doing most of the damage urself instead of minions+CE

57

Here’s a useful breakdown for easy reference:

Act 1: Safer pick given she’s a ranged attacker and therefore can avoid enemy aggression despite being rather squishy. Inner Sight tops out at level 31 upon reaching level 96 and with gear layout below can hit level 34(-2015 Defense) with BO.
Useful auras:
Fanaticism(Faith): Skill IAS(allows her to attack/cast Inner Sight faster) along with bump to %Damage and Attack Rating. +2 Skills bumps Inner Sight higher and +3 Amazon Bows makes her Elemental Attacks quite strong.
Thorns(Bramble + Edge(if you want to double up on it)): %Returned is amplified against minions and especially if they get cursed(hence Cure is not advised here for that reason). Edge can double it to level 30 to as high as level 36 with a perfect Bramble roll. Thing is Faith’s perk’s outweigh having a much higher Thorns(imo).
Resist Fire(Flickering Flame): Benefits the Fire variant while making her incredibly resistant to Fire Damage. Also makes your minions immune thanks to the Resist Fire Aura combined with Summon Resist skill.

Act 2: Comes with a free aura(Might is generally the pick) and yields several perks, including being a better first kill option and better Boss Mercenary.
Useful Auras:
Conviction(Infinity): Expensive to make but this runeword shreds Bosses and its uptime is more consistent compared to Inner Sight for as long as the Merc is alive.
Thorns(Bramble): %Returned not only helps him but amplifies the damage your minions can achieve against tough opponents.
Resist Fire(Flickering Flame): Optional on an A2 Mercenary, this aura can greatly amplify his resistance to Fire Damage(useful in Travincal/CS imo) while making your minions immune to Fire Damage. However, I recommend Andy’s(Ral’d) for +2 Skills(+20% Enhanced Damage on Might), 20 IAS and Life Leech.
Might(free base aura): Tops out at level 20 for +230% Enhanced Damage. BO + Andy brings it to level 23 or 260%(pretty nice ngl).

For Zookepers(Druid’s), you don’t have Necro’s Curse tree so you either have to debuff yourself(Reaperwolf) or rely on your Mercenary to do it(Act 2 Might with Reaper).

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58

Yup pretty much everything

this one perhaps has a few other options

there is quite a few more options for the pure summoner on which myself and a guy named CleanLX did some theory crafting and testing in an earlier post if interested. And i do prefer using debuff myself on Fury/summoner since act 2 merc tend to sometimes be far behind or doing stupid AI decisions

btw the best results is probably some of the last replies just so u dont have to read everything

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59

I ended up respec’n my Zoo_Druid to pull points out of HotW and pump up Oak Sage so I had better survive-ability.
Then outfitted the Act2 Might Merc with Bramble, Infinity and Andy’s.
That turned out to be the ticket to get him to lvl99 :).

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60

Yeah :slight_smile: that seems like a great idea and since only half ur army benefits from the extra damage due to spirit wolves dealing cold damage the benefits from extra hp/survival is probably the better choice since the dps loss is somewhat negligible

Edit: btw being cursed with amp damage or decrep on ur army actually turns out to be a buff when using thorns since ur army returns more damage when they themselves take more damage so dont be too sad loosing the cure helmet