A small tweak makes Runeword "Mist" relevant

PTR Feedback
1

The current Mist runeword, while a well rounded bow, has some inherent design flaws which makes it rather useless (detailed explanation by TSBoyer : Goodbye to the D2 Amazon community - #107 by TSBoyer-1111)

On Merc:

  1. High level requirement - prevents it from being a step up choice to faith
  2. Concentration aura + freeze + 3 denies it from being used by Necro / Deathsin
  3. Pride + Might A2 still a superior choice for a stat merc combo.

On Amazon:

  1. Severely outclassed by existing options considering how rare Cham rune is
    1a. Case in point: Strafer would prefer Faith / WF and Ice Maiden would use Ice
  2. Does not provide any real advantage over Ice for Magezon builds

Proposed resolution:

  1. Remove concentration aura and add in x% chance to cast lvX Lower Resist on striking mod

This will address its overall weakness as a poor hybrid / elemental bow choice while still allowing Ice to keep its position. It also opens up A1 rogue as an (somewhat budget) alternative to infinity A2 mercs - and the lower resist procs will help improve their own freezing / explosive arrow damage.

This small tweak will make Mist a good and viable endgame option while not competing with existing bows.

EDIT: To clarify, this mainly addresses bringing an end-game bow for bowazons using full elemental builds (while still improving A1 merc’s support role). For physical + elemental hybrid, we already have Faith, WF and Ice so why add another bow in the same category?

EDIT 2: TSBoyer explains this in detail, check out his post in this thread: A small tweak makes Runeword "Mist" relevant - #17 by TSBoyer-1111

4 Likes
2

Not a fan of removing the concentration aura as it actually helps to deal with cold or fire immune monsters pretty well on a frost maiden etc.

3

I don’t see the point of this change. It seems like this will still be a poor alternative to an A2 Infenity + other aura merc in terms of equipment if not cost.

As to your point 2, Magezon builds still get half their damage from physical (bow) attacks, so Concentration does help there. Equipping Faith or Ice as your character’s bow then backing it with a A1 merc using Mist might not be bad if it didn’t cost a Cham. As it is, that role is competing with the built-in Might A2 merc aura that scales with level.

Ideally the solution is to adjust the rune requirements to fit what it provides and when. If Cham were instead an El (making Gul the only hard rune to get) , it would be pretty good mid/late game.

4

You wouldn’t need concentration for physical damage when you have Lower Resist to break the immunity. Does not work on all monsters immune to fire/ice but it also depends on Lower Resist levels. Frost maidens already use WF or Faith if they want to deal with cold immunes using physical damage.

5

The lower resistance curse wouldn’t break cold immunes in Chaos Sanctuary etc though. I see Mist as a merc bow or else a more budget viable option for an ice maiden or fire/phys build until you can get a Faith made. A Cham+gul is much cheaper than Jah+Ohm. I wouldn’t mind LR on the bow if it would actually break all regular immunities, but it won’t because only lightning gets that bonus for some reason lol. For now, I think it’s fine as a hybrid “budget” bow.

6

For Magezons, the physical damage does not splash, amping that does not do much for general pack clearing tbh. I wouldn’t use Ice + A1 Mist as it only bumps my physical damage further. Magezon aims to maximize elemental damage with physical only for leeching which Mist already does ok without Conc. With lower resist, you could combine infinity merc + Mistzon which makes Magezon even better at what it is doing. Heck, you can even run a pure Fire Bowazon (with the new helm) with so much -resists.

Adjusting runes to provide lower requirements will only mean Mist is a temporary bow before we get Faith or Ice … making it useless more or less considering most people level with sorc, pally or barb. Even making mist available at lower levels wouldn’t make the bowazon competitive.

7

This is actually an excellent idea. I hope devs are listening.
That bow would make magezon builds actually viable next to physical bowa.

Which having a Faith Bow or a WF would be better than that Conc aura, which is the point of his post. Mist is useless for the purpose of what you’re saying when you could purchase a WF for Ist or Mal rather than blowing 2x HRs into Mist. Hell, you could purchase a Buriza for dirt cheap and it would be as good as Mist, regarding your stated purpose of Conc, come around lv 80.

Removing Conc and putting in Lower Res would enable an entire new breed of Elemental Bowa play. If they could take their time, if it is possible to do this, it would ensure a great deal of new play interest for new player base.

I would even run a magezon first season if they did this.

Conviction Aura effect stacks with Lower Resists effect btw.

Alternatively, if they didn’t want magezons running around with Conv + Lower Res, they could just put mods on the bow like: -30% through -40% Fire and -30% through -40% Cold. ← With that, it would create the Faith effect in terms of the runeword’s worth when it rolled perfect.
It had occurred to me that the only problem Lower Res on that bow might actually cause, is Charged Striker Javazons using it on swap to make Lower Res in conjunction with their Infinity mercs, when they are already really really strong.

2 Likes
8

One of the primary stated goals was to give options that would make other non-A2 mercs more viable.

The above could be abused to give Sorcs and Javazons (the things that don’t need buffed) ways to further be even better. Making a Lower Resist proc doesn’t balance under performing skills. It gives better skills a way to be even better.

9

Two things:

  1. Lower Resists on a Bow on an a1 Rogue is no where even near the amount of -res that Infinity offers, let alone the sheer physical damage output from the a2 merc and his 2nd native aura, whatever that may be. Adding Lower Res to this bow would be a suboptimal choice on a merc over an a2 merc with Infinity. Adding Lower Res would serve to make the Bow viable for the Amazon class. Furthermore, people who really want Lower Res as a buff mechanic rather than a primary weapon, just purchase and use Lower Res Wands. This has been happening 20 years already.
  2. Windforce is already always optimal on an a1 Rogue in terms of damage output for the Rogue. The only other choice is Faith and now Mist, for either a Fanat aura or a Conc aura. Again, the Rogue has no native aura like an a2 merc and the Conc on Mist is half or less of a Pride runeword worn by a2 merc. The Mist Bow is doing nothing to make Rogue more viable over a Faith or WF Rogue or an a2 merc with Pride and Might.

Simply put, the Mist Bow is literally useless. There is no reason to make this runeword. Regardless of what your views are on how to change it, it needs something different done to it. No one is going to build this runeword past a handful of people experimenting with it during season 1 and then self-realizing there is no reason to build this runeword. The only thing it serves as is a HR sink, which is disappointing to say the least.

1 Like
10
  1. This echos quite a bit of what I said, so obviously I don’t disagree.
  2. Again, sure. I don’t see it as an optimal setup or valid alternative to existing bows or mercs.

I don’t have a use for Mist in its current incarnation, but I’d suggest any solution be aimed at making it more effective for A1 mercs which the “Lower Resists proc” does not do.

11

I guess the misunderstanding here is that you are wanting it to be a merc bow because that’s what patch notes said, whereas Amazon players are wanting a new bow option that actually works with Elemental Arrows because they don’t yet have one. 2/3rds of the Bow skill tree are unusable mainly because no bow in the game supports the skill usage. They give it a shot with Ice but it only resulted in Faith still being better than Ice, even for Elemental Arrows.

What happens is that once a Magezon realizes Faith is better than Ice, it sets them down a path of self-realizing that physical damage in general is just better than Elemental Arrows. This inevitably results in the player respecing several times until they end up as a normal physical based Bowazon. Players want a reason to actually play Elemental Arrows and the majority of the Amazon players were excited to see a new bow in regards to this with this patch, but then they get Mist.

They don’t need to buff Elemental skills any more than they have. They just need to make a bow that supports the use of caster like skills rather than hard physical based skills. Mist was an opportunity to do this but no one was there to catch the ball.

Adding Lower Res in place of Conc would more than likely be the bow they all wanted. Even a simple lv 1 Lower Res would be enough to justify the use of a Magezon wielding both Frozen Arrow and Immolation Arrow.

1 Like
12

Using the bow to proc Lower Resist is balanced against CTA buffing on Lightning Sorc and Javazon. It would really be clunky having to swap all these items, stash it and start the run - plus you now need to carry arrows lol. The gap might not be that big - efficiency wise :slight_smile:

Also, given a lower % chance to proc LR (5-10% perhaps?), it would take a Sorc or Javazon significant time to proc. In this gap, a well geared javazon can already dish out 5 or more charged strikes. Maybe Ubers will take lesser time but hey we already have crazy smiters clearing that content in record time while being so tanky.

For non-Amazon elemental builds, Mist while not as effective as infinity, can be seen as an active Lower Resist wand which has been used by most until they get infinity (1 cham is still easier to farm than 2 Ber plus it is still a useful bow after)

Lastly, with a lv7+ lower resist, we can break into a new immunity range of fire and cold immunes (being 125 with infinity and 110 without ) and that will open up so many farming options together with the new lv85 zones for a Magezon or any elemental classes

1 Like
13

A WF or Buriza wouldn’t be better for a hybrid build with phys and elemental damage. Sure the phys portion would be better, but then your freezing arrow would do a lot less damage due to losing +6 skills.

I do agree LR on it would be nice for a fire+cold mix though.

14

But it is better because it deals more physical damage and physical based bowa is always just better in general, even if you’re talking the Freezing & Immolation piercing 100% off Buriza in a line. I absolutely guarantee you that if you were to stat completely as a Magezon and compare Build (A) using Mist with Elemental Arrows and then Build (A) swaps and tests Buriza with even a base lv 1 Multi in conjunction with all of the +skills on that Magezon build, the unstated Multi will out-DPS Freezing Arrow and Immolation combined.

Sure you could claim “But the Mist is better for the Freezing Arrow and Immolation damage” but those damages are negligent when the Magezon figures out to spam base lv 1 Multi with a Buriza.

This is what I’m talking about, there are no bows that truly bolster & support the caster based Elemental Arrows.

The game needs one.

15

First off, the “fix” for those shouldn’t be needing the right bow. Elemental bow skills should be made competitive with other skill based damage without needing items. Second, there are quite a few existing items that offer bow bonuses that could be tweaked the goal is to give better Magezon items. (I half suspect they gave us a Kuko Shakaku to see how it works regular and up’ed.) There’s little to suggest that “Mist” was created to solve any of the issues you’re trying to solve or even that it’s the right tool to try to do it with.

I suspect Faith will still be the end goal bow, though. It has a good IAS (30ish?) bonus and a lot of ED (~600% total). More elemental arrows are usually better than one strong one and every class needs at least one good secondary damage type.

16

In D2, many non-sorc / pally builds do not come to alive until certain gear pieces are obtained. Besides, they did already buffed the elemental skills (esp fire) in 2.4. The beauty of D2 is skills and gear work together to make new and interesting builds - not levels.

We do not know if “Mist” may or may not have been created to solve any of these issues, but the current “Mist” has not solved anything at all - even as a A1 merc weapon (faith / WF is superior as damage options and for physical stat stick - A2 is almost always superior). Even Faith on A1 while good, is not that great; if Mist is weaker than that - it goes into forgotten territory.

1 Like
17

Agreed, but we seem to be arguing about two different things here.

I am aware of the patch notes to make runewords to make mercs viable.

What I am saying is that Amazon players want a Bow designed for Elemental Arrows.

We have plenty of gear already to support caster like Elemental Arrow play that is off-weapon, such as: Various +skill helmets, including Nightwing - Enigma or Ormus - Arach - +3 Bow Skill gloves or Magefists - SOJs & BKs - Mara’s - Facets in general - ect ect, the same as any other class gets. But the difference is that other classes get things like: Death Fathon/Eschuta - White Wand/Death Web - +Trap Skill with +3 Sentry - ect ect. Even in the case of melee physical based builds, each class has weapon options tailored specifically to make a build structure work: Barb Grief/Beast - Smiter Grief - Ghostsin Chaos - Standard Bowa Faith - Charged Striker Plethora of options - EBOTD in general - ect ect and that isn’t even to mention old uniques that were once OP before runewords arrived. Every skill set type in the game has something designed for it that also works, except Elemental Arrows.

You could keep buffing Elemental Arrows but the buffs would be rather disproportionate to make these skills good in light of needing to use weapons that don’t bolster & support those skills. This would be like saying “We need to buff Tornado until it is useful on a Druid who is using a melee axe and a stormshield.”

Difference in opinion I guess, but it is my firm opinion that after 20+ years of Amazons not having any options that work for the Elemental Arrows, that it needs an adequate runeword that actually does synergize well with Elemental Arrows, in the same way that a White Wand synergizes with a Bone Necro as example.

Ideally, I’d like to see Mist turned into this, and this would indeed also serve to make Rogues more viable because Rogues also use Elemental Arrows, which are receiving buffs even. Regardless of if the Rogue is fire or ice, this Mist rehash would definitely make Rogues somewhat viable next to an a2 merc. The Rogues are getting Freezing Arrow and Exploding Arrow, this is AoE damage. With a Mist rehash, the a1 Rogue could be viable as an assist in mob killing as opposed to the a2 merc’s single target DPS:

Normal Mist:

  1. Level 8-12 Concentration Aura When Equipped (varies)
  2. +3 To All Skills
  3. 20% Increased Attack Speed
  4. +100% Piercing Attack
  5. +325-375% Enhanced Damage (varies)
  6. +9 To Maximum Damage
  7. 20% Bonus to Attack Rating
  8. Adds 3-14 Cold Damage
  9. Freeze Target +3
  10. +24 Vitality
  11. All Resistances +40

My first thoughts on a Mist rehash:

  1. Level 5-10 Lower Resist or alternatively +10% to 15% to fire & lightning damage and -10% to 15% fire & lightning immunity. “Give the rolls some variation for economical reasons” I think the Lower Resists would be better, but with the + & - to fire/light that doesn’t break immunity, the Amazon if wearing this, could still use an a2 with Infinity merc and the Rogue would still hit a lot harder with the Elemental AoEs.
  2. +3 To All Skills
  3. 20% Increased Attack Speed
  4. +100% Piercing Attack
  5. +325-375% Enhanced Damage (varies)
  6. +9 To Maximum Damage
  7. 20% Bonus to Attack Rating
  8. Adds 3-14 Cold Damage
  9. Freeze Target +3
  10. +24 Vitality
  11. All Resistances +40

Elemental Arrows would need a bow with synergy like this, if they were to ever be viable alongside of physical based Bowas or things like Hammerdin & Light Sorc for that matter. And again, a bow like this with Lower Res on a Rogue would make her an AoE Machine. She may not be as good for boss kills as an a2 merc, but she’d be a much better assist for mob kills, especially with that 100% pierce throwing around Freezing & Exploding Arrow.

These changes would certainly boost the a1 Rogue’s viability.

The Mist runeword is ONE AFFIX OFF from being an adequate synergy for a1 Rogue and Amazon Elemental Arrows. The runeword is already nearly exactly what we need. The only thing off about it is that Conc aura. They simply need to take this opportunity before the patch drops and make this happen.

This is one of the things that could be done that would actually get great reviews.

1 Like
18

Also as a bonus to this thread, just gonna throw in there that the bow runeword Brand that makes Amp when you get hit, has always need to be changed to and should be changed so it makes Amp when it strikes. Just make it low level Amp and on a reasonably low % proc.

This would be an adequate alternative to stacking Might/Conc on a2 mercs.
Another runeword rehash that would make a1 Rogue usable.

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19

That would make for a nice change on Brand. With Amp it might even be a worthy competitor both for Amazon and A1 merc use.

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20

I don’t think one piece of gear should determine how viable an entire portion of a class is. If changing Mist to finally make elemental Bowzon viable is what you want, it seems like the skills have their own problems. The gear should just make doing what you are already doing better and faster.

I’m not saying gear shouldn’t matter, but other bows with +skills and some stats should also make these skills decently strong too.

Even if it’s just for a merc. You shouldn’t need the bow to make the build viable, it should just make it stomp even more.

1 Like