That’s literally asking to only consider your perspective. I am offering different perspective.
Sure, and many do voluntarily do so. My guild has alt-casual runs every week, most guilds do the same. It’s when players are forced or expected to play with people they don’t want to that the “problems” arise.
Yeah I agree with this point to an extent. But in the vain of “you don’t NEED to min/max to play the game!” it rings hollow. In truth, if one does not learn to min/max, eventually they are left behind and they quit or they just find a few friends to dick around with. Basically this “huge game community” is just various cliques who rarely interact with each other in game.
Of course it is. That’s real life, too. You find like minded people to be around and those are your people. People who don’t want to min/max surely have similarly minded people to play with. Seems like they only get worked up about min/maxing when they don’t get to play with a min/max group, but the obvious alternative is to start a group with other non-min/maxers and have more fun than you woulda with the min/maxers
how many times can we say min max in one thread btw
Yeah but I think this is a problem for an online game community. There really should be no cliques, or at least very few. LoL has massive problems too, but I find most game communities to be much more accepting of eachother than they are in WoW, and I feel min/maxing has a lot to do with it.
It’s… it’s a game. Not only is it a game, it’s a game that actively encourages grouping up to complete content, and for certain content you are actively encouraged to maintain your own group. RE: Mythic raiding, where cross-server groups are not a thing until well into the tier. Technically every guild is a clique.
I mean, I’ve played almost every MMO on the market [let’s face it, comparing WoW to CoD/BF/OW/LoL/CSGO/Destiny/etc is not a comparison that is fair to make in terms of community]; some MMOs are more welcome/geared towards encouraging more experienced players to interact with newcomers, and some are not. WoW has not been designed from the ground up to specifically encourage seeking out newer players that need aid.
You can argue that that’s something players should be doing of their own volition, but I suggest you look at how long this game has been on the market, and how radically it has changed over the years.
What you “feel” and what is true are two different things entirely, particularly since you did not define what you consider min/maxing to be, but more what you consider it not to be.
You claim min/maxing is something that must be done to clear content, but you’re rather vague about what that means, or to what extent you’re implying min/max is “required”. You don’t have to perfect every aspect of your character to clear a Heroic raid, or do a +15, or get to a decent rating in PvP. You have to play decently and learn from your experiences. That’s it.
Again, who are you defining as being min/maxers in this case? Are you defining wannabe-elitists who try to force their ideas on everyone else while simultaneously failing to achieve the standards they lay out for others, or are you defining players who simply seek every avenue possible by which they can maximize their performance?
Forcing a player who wants to maximize every aspect of their gameplay to engage with someone who does not care [or cannot play at that level] is a great way to breed frustrations on both sides. This is why Mythic raiding, Heroic raiding, Normal raiding, LFR, various levels of keystones, various PvP rated brackets, and pet battles exist. Not every piece of content is meant for everyone, and you’re not going to ever get people to participate in every form of content in this game unless you render the game extraordinarily trivial as a whole.
A relatively happy medium currently exists- there is plenty of content for all skill levels to engage in, incentives exist for people of greater competency to do lower brackets of content to help move people through things, and people still have the freedom to do as they wish. The grievances being aired over the Covenant system have a lot more to do with a desire indicated by Blizzard to force people into intentionally narrowing choices of gameplay, and reducing flexibility for those who do play at the upper thresholds of gameplay.
One Covenant being better than the others is of little relevance for your average Normal raider, or your late-in-tier Heroic raider, unless Covenants are so badly misbalanced that we see extreme differences in performance. One can hope that this is not the case, but Blizzard tends to approach performance with a sledgehammer rather than a chisel; the fear of “my current Covenant got nuked from orbit by nerfs so I have to spend x amount of time swapping Covenants and losing non-combat rewards just to catch up” is not an invalid fear, as others might paint it to be. Just food for thought.
I think that’s it. First, the min/maxers show everyone how good people can make their characters. The idiot gamers pick up on this and get it in their head that this is the way to play and the only way to play and expect others to follow. Next thing you know, people are getting benched/excluded. The real attack is on the latter half. The problem is indirectly created by min/maxers, but min/maxers end up being included nonetheless for these arguments.
Truth is, people are going to be excluded regardless of whether covenants are locked. I didn’t play legion at the time but reports of how picking the wrong artifact weapon leading to being benched in raids prove this. Truth be told, covenants should be swappable to prevent these situations altogether. At the very least they should be freely swappable once per week (without losing renown etc) just to alleviate these situations.
As for swapping them more than once a week: Is it okay to be able to swap covenants just so that you have the optimal buffs within your group every time for every dungeon? This is honestly where the debate should be at. Will it be okay for at the start of every dungeon, players assign each other to covenants to play for that dungeon? That’s the can of worms that the swap covenants side is opening. My take on this is that it’s going to be tedious as hell to play through and I’d rather not.
That goes both ways. There’s just as many anti-min/max people trying to force everyone to play like them.
Except that 90% of the people who min/max do it so they can compete in an competitive environment, not because it’s fun (min/maxing can also be out right boring if you need bland abilities/items to get to the top). Now, a problem that some people have with min/maxing is that blizzard only seems to balance things based on what the min/maxers want and end up focusing all their attention towards them.
I personally don’t care what other people do with their free time, but if it messes with me having fun then I’m not gonna be a happy camper about it.
People see people who min/max as gatekeepings because they decide if you qualify for certain content. No one rejects you from a m+ group because you do not have 200 mounts.
Citation needed
And everyone is welcome to make a 200 mount club only group.
All the content is available to everyone. All groups are not.
Competing is fun.
Wow. Everything you just said was incredibly wrong. Good job impressing me though.
Somehow it seems like the purpose of all these min-maxing and anti-min-maxing threads is not to convince one side of the rightness of the position of the other side, but to drive an even greater wedge between players who have different playstyles and convince them that the wow community is worse than nothing, that it would be better to play this game solo than run into the sanctimonious judgmental whatevers who are being encouraged to drag the community even further into the gutter.
It’s almost as though the entire argument is staged. We are watching a scripted play, not a discussion carried on by actual people.
Idk. It seems like the argument ends up coming down to a group that wants more freedom vs one wanting restrictions. Given that the more freedom option works for everyone, while the more restrictions option only works for that group, I’m not sure you can come to an agreement.
Agreed. /thread
Nope. They only decide if you can qualify to their group. You can make your own group at any time. They cannot stop you.
Agreed but that is not how it is percieved.
The health of the game comes first. Blizzard will always act in the best interest of the game as a whole.
How about you explain how your ideas are the best for the game and all it’s players overall. Instead of just making petty arguments that amount to nothing more than the whines of every post teen.
All this outrage over one ability. All the covenant abilities will improve your damage. Some may do slightly less in a specific situation, but fair better in another. One may be BiS for one spec, but not as good in a different spec.
You can min/max your talents, gear, soulbinds, conduits, legendaries, etc. The fact that you can’t switch one ability before ever fight in the raid is just unimaginable for some people.
P.S. you can switch covenants.