Ok and? (Char)
I do agree that sub should be the only spec to have shadow dance, but garrote and gouge should be for all specs
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One thing Iâve noticed in most of the DL trees is an abundance of CC, which Iâm not a big fan of. Rogues already have a lot, but giving sub access to garrote silence and gouge incap is overkill imo. Maybe one or the other, but not both, especially if garrote silence works during dance.
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Gouge should be baseline. Gouge use was a differentiator between noob and pro rogues from Vanilla onwards, through a bunch of expacs. Itâs a classic rogue move. Taking it off baseline was one of the worst design decisions weâve had.
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Iâm an european player (same char name). I leveled 10 lvl char on US server only to be able to commet here aswell.
But congratulations on categorisation. Again.
(munching popcorn)
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ABC 123 RMP 
I would like to see sub rogues in more comps outside of rmp though tbh.
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We are rogues, all rogue abilities should be here my man. Assassination will still have a 5s silence if they want and no cd from coming out if stealth. It is a 6sec CD for us others. Silence only applies from dance or stealth as well. A smart player will CC you anyway or a team mate in that time.
Shaman got a lot of big changes and many great defensives as well as thunderstorm for all, lasso for all that cannot be dodged or immuned since it is physical damage now, poison cleanse, 6% flat damage reduction (skill pts 2/2) , gust , very potent healing after talking to multiple shaman friends and observing. 60% Astral Shift , incap totem replaces itself if destroyed (talent) , tremor totem in class tree, ghost wolf if a shaman chooses for a stacked up 20% and spectral recovery if they wish to heal, earthbind/ earthgrab, 15 maelstrom now, for enhance, stoneskin for an additional 10% Dr totem, Bull ring whatever it is called totem to lock people out (area denial effect which is very freakin cool), double shields (talent) and it can be enhanced further with unleash shield for 50% DR and Healing done by the enemy standing in the water shield whirlpool, Earth shield roots, and lightning shield knocks people back. Lastly, I believe double storm keeper is there for shaman and natureâs swiftness to use defensively for a heal or blow someoneâs behind up.
I will never advocate to reduce anyoneâs capabilities because that promotes a skillful environment where using X global could mean you stay alive against multiple foes. According to footage on alpha, shaman is easily one of the tankiest mfs around with the rightfully restored kit that you guys have now.
Dance was nerfed to 10%, symbols is nerfed to 10%, dark shadow is finally in which helps recover some, nightstalker will remain nerfed most likely, prey will remain nerfed, these arguments to take tools away are invalid. The poison talents in which you mentioned can also be dispelled easily and really arenât that hot to begin with. There is no Sanguinary Vein to make damage happen outside of dance so we are still in heavy windows.
Way back in the day we had access to all tools as rogues as it should be and it is finally rightfully returning. The pruning and âclass fantasyâ crap have gone too far. I advocate for all classes to have returning tools to deal with any choice of their choice, not for pruning because of crap reasons. No one should be limited and there is zero discussion / argument to prune anyone.
DH / Wind wankers have consistent damage and burst and no one bats an eye. A warlock and mage can control you far more frequently than a rogue can. We stun you the easy fix is to remain cool and preemptively use things. Rogues are easy to kill, after our 2 minute CDs are gone - that is it - toast. It was about time gouge AND garrote came back, itâs been overdue and any actual rogue as there are no alt rogues only mains can agree with this.
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Now that we arenât setting the table for people off of stuns that can happen, now we have our dang kit back finally and other classes have a lot going on as well which is great so now more teams can exist in total.
Agreed, there is zero reason to have stripped us of any of our tools. Who gives a flying banshee what other people get, good for them - I heavily encourage everyone to have tools to deal with any situation.
With the return of abilities, it opens up a lot more teams to synergize in addition to lots of counters. Limitations of any class and specialization is garbage.
Evokers have an incredible kit, Shaman gained a great kit and are very tanky from recent footage, Mages will prob hybridize a good bit, DH will most likely get sigils across both (iâm cool with it and donât care).
The point is bring it on, everyone needs to have tools and us rogues will find a way to deal with it as we always do.
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I find these kinds of complaints funny tbh. âYou cant give them all that, its OP REEEEâ like you can use all those abilities at the same time lmao.
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To me it seems like every spec, even healers, are getting more cc in their toolkit, when you look at the talent trees that have been released.
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Yep and Iâm cool with it, give everyone tools to deal with stuff. Itâs better for everyone in the end. Everyone should have a full tool kit to deal with situations. The whole pruning crap because people whining is ridiculous.
People donât read tooltips or dig into anything, they just look at our stuff and blow a gasket without any regards to looking at what changed. We are still pretty heavy on dance windows even with additional stuff coming back, and that is completely cool with me. All I wanted and any Subtlety rogue wanted was for more ways to deal with stuff.
Not being able to peel for people or yourself and being limited to cheap shot / Kidney is the most ridiculous crap that anyone has ever done to us. There was absolutely no reason to take away abilities. Itâs been what like⌠6-7 years that we have been fighting for stuff to come back? Gouge and Garrote should have never left for âidentityâ or whatever nonsense that someone can come up with.
If that were the case then âonly Bm pets can stun, only survival can trap, only Frost Dks can use mind freeze since itâs frostâ, nonsense like that type of thinking is what got us here. It should set all of us Rogues off, we should be filthy and we should resort to running when needed because that is how we scuff kids. No one cares when a Paladin heals to full 15x in a row and whoops on people with procs but Nightâs fury do people blow a gasket when a rogue chained a crap ton of stuff together to do anything meaningful.
Yea, this would be cool!
I love counterplay like this and think there should be more of it, not less. lol
Exactly. Why Warrior got all (I mean ALL) in âunpruningâ time, why there was no problem to give back Frost DK and WW monk 2h weapon back (not for Sub rogue his 1h main weapon), why there was no problem shamanâs DF talent tree to be bloomed as hell? And for some reason for years it seems to be a problem for devs to give back even majority of the things rogue previously had - even if it means some restrictions like to redesign or to switch between abilities due to the game beeing constantly evolved.
Donât get me wrong. I was very happy Premeditation came back (even if redesign, itâs ok), and I opened a bottle of champagne when we got Gouge back. But this is still âsomeâ in place of âmajorityâ or âallâ.
They gotta change that again to make its effect our current tier set. âYour next shadowstrike hits every target in an areaâ
Because we have distinct windows of control to do damage but people blow up about it though that is our niche. Heavy damage in focused windows. They cry because they trinketed silly crap and got whooped on next big round of cool downs. If people planned properly they would live through it but they donât.
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itâs not back just yet
the problem is rogues are doing just fine right now. check out the leaderboards:
https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/game/pvp/leaderboards/2v2
if the lads at the top donât plan properly, no one does.
So if you give rogues back garrote silence and gouge, you have to do one or two things. either nerf their damage, or increase the defences/counterplay options of other classes, just to compensate, nevermind actually giving all the classes a chance at the top of the leaderboard.
so donât celebrate just yet, even if rogues are gonna be busted on launch, they will get nuked in a few weeks, and harder than they will probably deserve.
As others have said, all the talent trees have classes and specs getting back a lot more utility, not just rogue.
And once again, even if rogue has all this utility why are you complaining? its all on the GCD. You cant use it all at the same time. They will be used based on the situation the way it should be.
Except ferals. We now have to choose between bash and incap roar, and use talents for both maim and rake stun - no cc baseline. Effectively lose hibernation if we want to retain any sort of survivability, and also have to spec into multiple resto healing talents to get cyclone. Kitties got pruned lol.
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No one is celebrating bub. Tools shouldnât have been removed in the first place. There is no argument for that. Being a stun bot isnât engaging or fun when youâre really just setting the table for a fire mage / warlock / moonkin to nuke something.
There is a 6sec CD for garrote whether you vanish aggressively or not. Ladder can also damn itself, that doesnât reflect people in say battle grounds or open world making good decisions.
A rogue also has to think quickly to survive, we kill in set ups. We donât muscle through people.