It’s about equal to me.
Heroic raid gives like 95 fragments for full clear in about 2 hours.
To get that much with m+ you would need to run 8 dungeons.
With a fixed group, 8 dungeons in 2 hours is possible if you are slamming 11s but that might be a tall order if you are plugging into keys.
This tier, heroic raid is such a joke that I don’t really think it’s much harder than a +11. And some bosses certainly are easier and faster. We killed Assault of the Zaqali in less than a minute last night for (I think) 15 crest fragments.
This criticism is better suited to comparing +16s and mythic raid, which are not remotely close in difficulty level.
But raiders can and do run keys also. While I don’t think I should have to run one form of content to facilitate playing a completely different form of content, that’s the system we have.
With heroic gear scaling to 441, relaxing the lock out restrictions would completely negate that. Shame they’re stuck on the lockout system for normal/heroic.
Ehh not like heroic has generally been hard.
That’s not the question though. Whether or not Heroic raid is difficult in the grand scheme of WoW endgame isn’t as important as how difficult it is compared to the M+ equivalent. A +11 is significantly easier than Heroic raid. It doesn’t even have the third affix.
This has been true for basically as long as M+ has been staple content, but it feels like the gap has been widened a bit in Dragonflight despite Blizzard’s attempts to narrow the gap. This isn’t an issue so much between raiders and dungeoneers since I think that on the high end, Mythic raid vs. +20s (for max vault loot) is a fair comparison. But Mythic raid isn’t feasible for many WoW players, even players who might have the skill needed to perform in that environment, simply due to the rigid entry requirements.
To the poster who asked earlier if M+ is so easy, why don’t we raiders just run them for gear? The answer is that we do! We’re not idiots. We know where the gear is. For guild like my own that are strictly a Heroic AOTC progression guild, the vast majority of my gear comes from dungeons. This is despite raid being my favorite content in the game and my main focus when playing. But I can’t just hop into raid whenever I want the same way I can with dungeons. I really do think that’s where the problem lies. With players who do organized Heroic raiding and are more than capable of running M+ dungeons in the +16-+20 range.
I almost didn’t believe you, but then I looked it up and saw there are heroic kills under 30 sec.
Wow! Lol I gotta convince my team to try that strat XD
Yeah, we could do better too, we still had a healer, even though it was clearly not needed at all. Have all your DPS spec for full single target, lust and zerg the boss, ignore everything else. Mortal Strike the self heal, and just kill him. It’s hilariously fast with gear.
It’s not even really a strat. You just do lust with all cds and overgear the fight.
I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s possible on mythic soon.
Also why does Heroic only give 10 fragments? Normal bosses give 15 Drake fragments. But Heroic only 10 Wyrm fragments.
At the very least 1 heroic raid boss should give you enough for 1 wyrm crest
about raiding… I know right!
Can confirm that when I run M+ it always feels like pulling teeth and I only even do it when either there’s a weekly quest that gives me an extra piece of Heroic gear for doing 4 of em, or my guildies happen to have a lot open for a nice key. It’s not about difficulty, it’s about M+ being entirely designed around mechanic overbloat and eternal tedium. Yeah there’s nothing more fun and engaging to me than TRASH PACK QUOTAS.
Also the fact that especially for a lot of the older dungeons that get rotated in the mechanics of the base dungeons themselves tend to be the antithesis of fun. Quality of encounters in dungeons is just weak, majority of the bosses range squarely between complete F tier unfun design, to just feeling like a massive chore. Most raid tiers have maybe 1-2 bosses out of 8+ that come close to feeling that way and in many cases the worst offenders actually aren’t required to clear further into the raid (Shadow-Lord Iskaar is a prime example)
I can assure you if we didn’t get the weekly raid loot quests, and arbitrary upgrade restrictions that require M+ (i.e. needing M+ rating thresholds for certain upgrade tiers with Valor, Wyrm Crests only being once per week from bosses in raid but spammable ONLY in M+ for PVE) I would not touch it period.
Except HoV. HoV is the only dungeon in the entire game I swear I wouldn’t mind spamming. Idk what it is about it, but that one is special lol
Think you’re conflating difficulty with accessibility.
I don’t think it’s easier to execute, it’s just easier to find 4 competent people for 25 minutes than it is to find 24 competent people for 2 hours.
In terms of the number of things you need to interrupt, run out of, and mechanics you have to know, m+ requires a lot more. Raiding is more about gear and having a pull where 5 people don’t commit an unforced error to wipe it.
People in my guild are, I know I am.
Some folks are a little, you know, so they like raiding regardless of the reward system.
If you don’t plan on doing that level of content, you don’t really need that level of upgrade.
People be talking like they only raid. You can dk both y’know.
You get rewarded for the effort of content you do.
There should be a way for non raiders or Key dungeons players to get those Wyrm crests or just fragments…I can’t raid anymore …I can do LFR but even then its hard on me…I am not geared enough too do Keys and esp many groups don’t like hunters…but yeah players like me should have some way to get fragments to make them.
Heroic bosses give both 10 and 15
It’s like every 3rd boss gives 15.
A half decent group clears Heroic pretty easy, maybe having some hiccups on Sark or Echo.
Heroic Raid also grants a much more time efficient Wyrm farm…like not even comparable. For example, I get nearly instant invites to 11s for crest farming, but the time to form group and clear the key is on average 34-38 minutes depending on how quickly at least one other person will go to stone so we can summon useless lazy players
I will say though that drake and whelping crests probably didnt need to be in the new system, or they could have made an exchange rate for Drake —> Wyrm at the very least
Like I think 4 drake crests —> 1 Wyrm would be reasonable. I have over 30 drake crests from normal raid I havent used
There’s no comparable content for them to drop from, though I wouldn’t mind seeing 1-2 from the weekly events (Fyrakk, Researchers).
You mentioned you can do LFR but it is difficult. If you can manage LFR, my advice is to take coins from your weekly vault and use them to purchase wyrm crests for 2 coins each. This gets you 3 wyrm crests a week for 7 LFR bosses which you can use to either upgrade items or make enchanted crests to craft 437s.
I have this character which I’m gearing only by doing this and world content for fun. It already has a 437 staff from doing this.