WTF happened to Guilds?


Um raiding was quite popular in Vanilla, sure not everyone got to see Naxx, but most of at least did MC and some BWL and everyone raided AQ20 and ZG.

As far as GC comments go, you realize this was just PR speak right? I swear people can be so obtuse when it comes to these developer’s comments. How many times did Ion make comments in their Q and As that you just rolled you eyes to? These guys have to make excuses for the direction they are being forced into taking from the higher ups.

Raiding participation was never an issue for the bulk of the WoW player base. LFR was introduced with one goal in mind, to target players that didn’t play MMOs. Even GC said it was his single greatest regret he had with WoW. Also, if he was happy with Blizzard and having fun working on WoW and not being forced to put in crappy systems like LFR, I think he would have stayed.

He even said that working on WoW became a chore because he was constantly being forced to dumb the game down in order to attract different types of casual players.

I stand by what I said! LFR was a short sighted mistake heaped on the developers by people who never understood what makes MMOs fun.

All they say is that 50-75% of the resources were going into this content so they wanted 100% participation with the added incentives of maybe attracting more anti-social, casual gamers that probably wouldn’t ever think about playing an MMO, which is probably the bulk of modern gamer’s.


i like how you only take a devs word, like ghostcrawlers, when he says something you agree with. says it all. i’ll take his word over yours on how people played the game considering he has the stats and you have imagination only to back yours up. obviously you will continue to believe what you believe irrelevant to any information coming from sources that actually have access to that kind of information so that’s the end of that.

i tend to forget that the popular thing nowadays is just to hate on things. my bad for getting involved in a conversation of such type.

(Mitora) #126

I kind of think you’re doing the same thing you are accusing Rox of. You refuse to see the usefullness of LFR for others.

Is this a GROUP game? Yes. No one tries to deny that. No one wants it to be a single player game. But no one really wants it to go back to the days of Vanilla or even before like in Everquest, where raiding was a second job.

I think many people are forgetting that this game is aging. Therefore the people who play it are aging. What happens when people go out and get jobs, get lives, have children, and generally don’t have the time to do the farming, prep, viewing and studying, that most raids take? They take a break.

But what if, and this may just be a possibility, Blizzard doesn’t want people leaving due to raiding requiring too much from people with lives? What if they would LIKE them to enjoy the content and the story without having to commit hours they DON’T have to the game?

Now, I hear you saying “Too bad, then they don’t get to see it.” I understand that, but that would mean those people would not play. And then they wouldn’t PAY. The end goal isn’t to come up with a crazy hard game that is enjoyable by the elite, but to create a viable world where BOTH elites and casuals can play at their own pace. And both… here’s the important part… PAY.

I like all the guilds I have been a part of. I really only like to raid with my guild. I find pugs tiring. But I am older. I am happy with seeing content through LFR sometimes when the real world gets too busy.

You should take your own advice and see the world through different perspectives too. My $15 a month is just that, $15 a month. It doesn’t give me any more rights to anything. However, I APPRECIATE being able to see aspects of the game AT A LATER DATE when I don’t have the time to commit to the full level of raid playstyle.

(Phydeaux) #127

That’s just not even close to being a true statement.

LFR was put into the game because of falling real populations with limited raiding guilds. They could have just offered free transfers, but instead they wanted people to pay to transfer.

So, it wasn’t about game play, it was about monetization of their IP.

Without LFR I would have quit for good long ago, because I just can’t tolerate the number of 20 somethings and their uneducated, hyperactive bullcrap in a game. I check in an LFR do my job, and leave.


Actually the one thing that made vanilla its own beast was because once you hit 60 you didn’t need to raid or be bored. So no not everyone raided because in vanilla many people loved that even at 60 there was still many things you could have done, where as now its almost a raid or be bored mentality game play.


Leveling might not have ever been overly difficult, but it was made much easier over time. And people don’t say in the very small “middle” because you outgear that middle without doing much of anything. In fact, you outgear almost everything without doing much of anything, which destroys the middle.

However, I’m not just talking end game. How often were you able to solo an elite mob you met while leveling in vanilla? Almost never? How often can you do that now? Almost every time. Even doing regular mobs had the chance, if you pulled the wrong guy or got feared or something, to end in your death. That’s almost an impossibility now. Remember when Blizz killed most of the non-instanced elite group quests?

And that doesn’t even get into the general xp nerfs that have happened every xpac. Now, they sort of undid some of that with the changes to leveling in Legion, but, in typical Blizz fashion, they fixed the wrong problem and wound up making it worse, or at least equally bad in a slightly different way.

And while raids and other instanced stuff is a small part of the content, how much of your playing time is spent in them? Probably more than half.

(Akston) #130

I agree with you that the middle has evaporated. On one hand I do find it interesting. For the longest people have complained that just because their ilvl is low, it doesn’t mean the guy with the higher ilvl should automatically be invited. Now that isn’t really an issue, and ilvl-wise people are on a more equal playing ground.

I see people playing ele shams at my ilvl or worse, doing stuff I couldn’t accomplish. Its great.

At the same time, while this experiment is interesting to see happen once, I do hope its not the new norm.

I agree generally. While there are still some mobs you see out in the world, they are typically the beefier WQ ones.

I did most of my initial leveling in TBC. I leveled almost entirely as resto, so I was able to solo a lot of the elite mobs, etc. I came from EQ and was used to leveling as a healer, and staying as a healer, etc. I know this wasn’t the norm, and I agree with the general premise. Storyline quests right now generally dont have elite mobs that require you to group.

Its probably fairly close. Lately at least. I raid about 6 hours and do a handful of m+ a week. I am not sure if I hit 10 hours in non instanced stuff. I’ve been doing some mog runs, so that probably does become the clear tipping point.

There was another thread that sorta touched on this before, but I wish there was a regularly updated Suramar type content. A “hard mode” pve area that rotated in per patch, that reflected new gear levels.

Example could be for 8.1. There could be new areas (as in the world changed), that reflects what has gone on, and has a much higher risk factor. Elite mobs, etc. An area that you would have clear benefits grouping in world content. It could be tied to the patch, and what is going on. Example could be an area outside of Dazar’alor. There could be an area where the Horde is assisting the Zandy’s with rebuilding the city and making sure no Alliance stragglers are around. And the Alliance could have a crew that is staying behind to sow some chaos, sabotaging the rebuilding.

This area could be where the “elites” are centered for the patch. As we outgrow the area due to gear, the next season…raid tier…whatever…could have a new “hard area”.


I’m certainly not against another Suramar-esque zone, but my issue is that everything else is built around the lowest common denominator, up to and including some raids.


Exactly! Same with 90% of the other population. And Blizzard wonders why they have retention issues.

(Akston) #133

And I get that. And I don’t see the over all mentality changing on design from that perspective. I think the closest thing we can expect is a compromise where basic leveling is still easy, but there may be specific “hard mode” areas spread around.

(Grimmox) #134

So you base your metric on auto guild invites? One of the most annoying social aspects of this game? You’re playing on your low level alt and all of a sudden someone out of nowhere with no context, invites you to a guild and sends you a generic whisper. Demanding that you join their roster of 500+ people even though most of them haven’t logged in in months. And you promptly tell them to screw off because you don’t want to join their alt bank.

Guilds aren’t dying.


That’s not an MMO. That’s just wasted time until you get to where it finally becomes “difficult”.

I’ve tried so many times over the last several years to level a new toon, but I just can’t do it because it was like fighting a wet paper sack or even worse, chasing around a tank that can solo 5 mans. It was horrible. And in Legion, I got really burned out doing LFR and WQs for that same reason.

I’m not a hardcore raider. I don’t pretend to be and I don’t want to be. I would just like there to be something for people that want a hint of challenge to do in WoW outside of raiding. I barely raided in vanilla (MC pug once and a couple partial ZG runs), and somehow I always had stuff to do that seemed engaging. Or if not, I could roll an alt knowing that it would be worthwhile leveling.

(Phydeaux) #136

Leaving the instance doesn’t mean leaving the game.

I don’t want to play with the challenges of balancing schedules with others. I also don’t want to waste time doing busy work.


This is my biggest beef with the game. The sad fact is that the bulk of the players left are exactly the people Blizzard has been targeting over the years. I always chuckle at these players trying to defend Blizzard’s silly decisions to force the game into a more solo RPG or
when they argue with unhappy players that miss past systems or how the game was years ago.


Maybe, but there is a mindset among so many modern WoW players now that guilds are the devil. It has seriously hampered the guild experience. I’ve seen Preach complain about it at great lengths. He said this mindset has just infected a lot of the player base and Blizzard hasn’t done jack to fix it.


Well based on your armory you don’t even bother with LFR. Also, the very act of playing any kind of video game is a waste of time in a lot of people’s eyes.

I never understood people like you that complain about wasting one’s time in a video game.

I also don’t get why you want to play an MMO in the first place if you are going to treat it like a lobby game where you drop in and out without bothering to make any connections? It is players like yourself that have steered this narrative over years making seem like people are crazy or they are wasting their team because they want to be part of a team or socialize in an online game!

(Phydeaux) #140

I haven’t stepped foot in a dungeon or a raid this expansion. And I unsubbed for 3 months because of Flight BS.

But don’t worry sport you don’t have concern yourself with any aspect of me. You are 100% irrelevant to me and my world, and until you start paying for my sub, my mortgage, or my family, you get zero say in any of it.

Also. Am MMO is a gaming architecture, not a prescribed way to play. They may teach you that in JUCO some day.


How typical that you would complain about flight.

The fact that you are responding to me makes kind of puzzles me if I’m not relevant. I hate when people resort to comparing their real life with in-game discussions, this is such a lame crutch that just makes your argument look weak.

Great ad hominem there! MMOs were always about people interacting and socializing, they share a lot of their roots with DnD and early MuDs, but you wouldn’t know this because I’m betting modern WoW is really your only MMO experience.

(Phydeaux) #142

Sorry if you think staying the objective definition of what am mmo is the wrong. Try and get over it.

Of course I unsubbed. A person who just complains with no action isn’t doing anybody any good.

I pay for this product and it’s a choice. If I am unhappy with aspects of the game I state it. If it’s that important I use my limited power as a consumer to voice my opinion.

Funny thing about Muds. There was a great article about how companies kill them because of developer hubris and the tread mill. Things that are all relevant above the noise from the naysayers on here.

On a flight. Best of luck defending whatever you choose to.

(Sorvethax) #143

Wow, someone needs to revoke you soapbox license. Seeing people go off on rants this stupid is pretty commonplace, but at least most of them can manage to face the right direction while doing it. The real cherry on top is the commentary of, “You wouldn’t understand, though, since you can only see your very narrow viewport,” that follows eight paragraphs that completely and utterly failed to answer the question asked by the very post you quoted. But, let’s go at this one at a time – it’ll be fun.

Okay, and where are your numbers? I’ve been playing MMOs before WoW ever existed, and as far as I’m concerned, you’re just as full of crap as anyone else.

I’d comment on the hilarity of thinking that WoW was ever a hard-core MMORPG, but instead I’ll take the low road and point out how your eight paragraphs of whining are whining about how other people are whining.

Welcome to Earth, where people get older and things change. The majority of WoW’s (and most MMORPG’s) playerbase grew up (most of us, anyways), got jobs, and couldn’t afford to do eight-hour grind sessions and seven-hour raids anymore. WoW made these changes in an attempt to stay relevant as a game – something EQ/EQ2 and other now-dead/dying MMORPGs did not.

Is it, like, literally 90%? Don’t ask for facts and numbers in your second sentence and then proceed to pull this crap – it makes you look like a moron, albeit so does everything else that follows. No one is “spinning a narrative,” they’re asking you how an easy mode version of a raid that provides mostly useless loot is detrimental to your experience.

Nope, I’m not a teenager. I don’t notice anything about e-sports other than the immediate, smack-in-the-face feeling of cringe I get when it pops up on the Blizz loader.

Yeah, my old EverQuest buddies and I always stood around, reminiscing about how much we missed shouting “looking for group!” in chat for twenty to thirty minutes at a time. They were real scrapbook moments.

I already touched on the stupidity of this one, but the real kicker is that you have the audacity to comment on other peoples’ social skills after crying this hard that people aren’t playing the game the way you want them to. Believe me when I say that we’ve seen players like you before, too; people who lean on their time played metric as though it makes your inane, baseless commentary any more digestible or accurate than the average “I’m better than you because X” post.

If you’re looking to thank anyone for the de-socialization of MMORPGs and multiplayer games, in general, you’ve no further to look than a mirror. People don’t avoid teamwork simply because they don’t like teamwork, they avoid it because they don’t like mouthy douchebags.