Would Shadowlands have benefited from a Duran?

So I’ve recently played Starcraft again, which really highlighted to me how Zovaal is a knock off Amon, and in light of the “secret mission” in which Zeratul uncovers Duran’s experiments with creating hybrids and the reveal that Duran serves some higher power… I got to wondering if Shadowlands could have benefited from a Duran like character.

Granted Sylvanas technically served as that with her machinations in the Fourth War aided Zovaal, as Doran’s machinations benefited Amon, but the execution felt flat since there was nothing hinting towards Zovaal at all in BfA where as even if Amon wasn’t mentioned, there was the reveal that Duran wasn’t serving Kerrigan but someone else.

I also think it might have helped to of had a character acting as Zovaal’s agent that was strictly loyal to Zovaal. Sylvanas wasn’t a loyal servant but under the belief that they were partners in crime, as it were, and Denathrius is clearing something and wanted to benefit from Zovaal’s machinations.

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Not just a Duran.

A Duran Duran.

He’s trying to find an Ordinary World, or found a New Religion, but he Can’t Keep You Out Of My Mind all the while being Hungry Like The Wolf.

Sorry. I’ve never played Starcraft and so have no understanding of the context of your actual question, I only have this dumb joke.

That being said, almost anything would have made Shadowlands better.

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It also helps that Duran says that the hybrid are a reflection of his master. The Hybrid are knock-off Xel’naga. Duran is hinting that his master is a Xel’naga. And we know that the Xel’naga created the Zerg Swarm and uplifted the Protross since SC1. We just didn’t know it was Amon and his followers until Heart of the Swarm and Legacy of the Void respectively.

Not to mention that they retconed Kel’thuzad fulfilling this role too. This is the key difference between Zovaal and Amon. Amon was planned. From the Overmind telling the PC celebrate that the Xel’naga created him and the Protoss viewing them as Gods. To Duran laughing at Zeratuls ignorance and blind anger at Kerrigan. These 3 factors were all set up in SC1 and Brood War. SC2 expands on these. Although the execution could’ve been better. Such as Amons motives explored in maybe Wings of Liberty with Zeratuls mission chain instead of the last minute in Legacy of the Void. Along with the Tal’darim always been a cult of Protoss following Amon instead of being created as the primary protoss enemy for WoL. With their death cult like status explained in HotS. My headcanon is that the Tal’darim Raynor’s Raiders face in WoL are basically outcasts having to prove their worth to Ma’lash. Culling the weak if you will. I mean Tal’darim believed that only the worthy would be ascended into Hybrid after all. Duran (as Narud) was playing both sides so either way he would get the artifacts.

Zovaal on the other hand just came into existence and is now the mastermind behind nearly everything in the meta narrative. Blizzard even tried to claim that he had never known defeat until they were called out on it. Using the very lore they created for the guy.

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Duran as of Brood War’s end, sure. The theoretical premise of what that could have been may well provide a useful framework for something. Meaning something other than what actually came of it.

I’ve always felt SC2 was too hasty and misdirected with his exposition. The fact that he was Duran at all is basically glossed over; he’s Narud more than Duran, and Narud doesn’t really do much before he’s outed as a bad guy. The potential for a slow build teased at the end of SC1 was kinda squandered thereafter, with certain key lore characters basically finding out the truth about Amon off-screen and showing up to inform everyone else instead of organically revealing such things through the gameplay.

Admittedly I feel like a lot of that was symptomatic of the novels between Brood War and SC2 being a mix of discarded and repurposed ideas. There could have been lengthier buildup, but they seemed hesitant to actually make use of things developed in external media, instead sidelining stuff like Ulrezaj, the Voice in the Darkness and the novel-introduced Tal’darim on Aiur. The intervening years’ materials tended to be full of threats that were made out to be part of the “Big Bad conspiracy” that was coming some day, only for them to have been written off as unrelated events when Amon was suddenly dropped on the story during SC2 itself. Sure, Amon was planned for SC2, but a lot of what came before felt like they’d tried building numerous avenues toward similar antagonists, only to scrap all that and basically just have Kerrigan and Zeratul show up as Amon experts right away instead.

So while the Duran premise had a great deal of promise coming out of Brood War, it never really felt properly executed to me thereafter. Zeratul’s mission to hunt down more hybrid labs became “Indiana Zeratul” exploring ancient temples instead, and the identity of Duran was only marginally mentioned ever again, as if he’d never not been posing as Narud.

In the same vein, the seeds for an organic build of the dreadlords’ machinations for Denathrius were planted in Shadowlands on release, but instead of using that for a slow build going forward, it seems increasingly like that tease was planted a mere one patch before spilling the beans about everything and simplifying it to “yeah, so instead of the Legion they were just really working all along for this current Big Bad who’s going to be a loot pinata soon anyway.”

Because…I guess they just had to connect the nathrezim to Revendreth in order to justify all the cliched vampire-themed emotes the dreadlord units had in WC3 that had never really come up ever since?

I think Kel’Thuzad was this character, but Blizzard did a very poor job presenting it. However, seeing Ner’zhul’s soul in Torghast reminded me of a scene for Kel’Thuzad that Blizzard rarely touched upon, being Kel’Thuzad meeting Ner’zhul:

    Fight or flight: those would have been the heroic choices. Heroic, but pointless. His death would serve nothing. By agreeing to become the necromancer’s apprentice, Kel’Thuzad bought himself time in which to bolster his own skills. With enough training, he could surpass the necromancer or catch the man off guard.


    You will never catch me unaware, for I do not sleep, and as you should have already guessed, I can read your thoughts as easily as you might read a book. Nor can you hope to defeat me. Your puny mind is incapable of handling the energies I manipulate on a whim.

    Kel’Thuzad had long since torn his robes, and his leggings were useless against the icy rock of the rough-hewn stairs. His hands and knees left bloody tracks behind him as he struggled up the last spiral. The throne radiated bone-chilling cold, and mist surrounded it. A throne not of crystal, but of ice.

    Immortality can be a great boon. It can also be agony the likes of which you have not yet begun to fathom. Defy me, and I will teach you what I have learned of pain. You will beg for death.

    He came within a few feet of the throne and could go no farther, pinned helplessly beneath the thing’s overwhelming aura of inhuman might and hatred. An unseen force bore down on him and ground the side of his face into the unyielding stone. “Please,” he found himself sobbing. “Please!” Further words escaped him.

    Finally the pressure eased. The wraiths flitted away, but he knew better than to rise. Doubted, in any case, that he could. His eyes, however, unwillingly sought out his tormentor.

    A set of plate armor was seated within the throne, rather than upon it. Kel’Thuzad might have thought the armor merely black, but, blinking hard, he saw that no light at all was reflected from its surface. In fact, the longer he looked, the more it seemed to devour all light, hope, and sanity.

    The ornate spiked helm obviously doubled as a crown. It was set with a single blue gem and, like the rest of the armor, appeared empty. In one gauntlet, the figure clasped a massive sword whose blade had been etched with runes. Here was power. Here was despair.

    As my lieutenant, you will gain knowledge and magic to surpass your most ambitious dreams. But in return, living or dead, you will serve me for the rest of your days. If you betray me, I shall make you into one of my mindless ones, and you will serve me still.

    Serving this spectral being–this Lich King, as Kel’Thuzad was beginning to think of him–would assuredly bring Kel’Thuzad great power… and damn him for all eternity. But that knowledge came far too late. Besides, damnation had little meaning without the prospect of true death.

What I could see is the Jailer offering Kel’Thuzad revenge against Ner’zhul, with the power to surpass and torment him, as we see the state of Ner’zhul in the raid. With Kel’Thuzad never actually having been loyal to Ner’zhul, and having expected Arthas to replace Ner’zhul, only for Arthas to fail to meet the Jailer’s expectations as well, Kel’Thuzad might have just been playing along all that time, waiting for the moment to appease the Jailer, as he finally admits to us he’s been doing all along when we come to fight him one last time.

This is why I kinda feel that Kel’thuzad joining Zovaal should’ve happened some point after wrath. Not from some vague moment blizzard didn’t even want to share. What we can infer from his dialogue from SoD is that KT has been serving Zovaal from either the very very beginning. I.e. his first time practicing Necromancy. Or soon after he made his bargain with Ner’zhul. The problem is that we have no idea which one is true or if neither is true.

If it happens before the Lich King was even a thing, why even go with the Lich King ploy if you already have a man on the ground?

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You beat me to it

He should relax, and watch some Girls on Film.

Me either. As I read the thread, my mind went to Kyp Durron from the Star Wars Expanded Universe. Then to Duran Duran.

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Yeah the idea of Kel’Thuzad serving Zovaal all along raises so many questions. What made Kel’Thuzad so special to receive contact from Zovaal over other undead, did Ner’zhul have contact and give him the finger too like he did the Legion, if the Dreadlords and Kel’Thuzad were both on Team Jailer then why did Kel’Thuzad save Arthas when it was clear that Arthas wasn’t going to be follow the script, and was Sylvanas even aware that she was working with Kel’Thuzad?

Things would have been simpler if Blizzard just established Kel’Thuzad working with the Jailer after his defeat in Wrath. After all per Chronicle Volume 3 his soul was rumored to have been lost to the Shadowlands, so they could have easily worked with that. Like had Zovaal instruct Devos to toss him Kel’Thuzad’s soul or something.

I more wonder if it was in the time between Arthas having killed Kel’Thuzad and bringing him back as a lich, as Kel’Thuzad was talking to Arthas from beyond the grave, but hadn’t been risen by necromancy yet.

My headcannon is that Kel’thuzad was loyal to Arthas, but was still secretly serving the jailer for more power and when it looked like the Jailer was going to win, he went full team jailer and claimed to be loyal all along

Only thing that makes sense to me anyway :wolf:

It is kinda funny that when you get close to killing him in the latest raid that he tries to offer you power in exchange for sparing him.

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