You’re being deliberately obtuse. The children borne since the evacuation of Argus share no responsibility, but we are talking about an obscenely long lived race here. Velen was one of three primary leaders to their near eternal people, and just sat on his haunches until things became so bad that he had to flee with those few followers still devoted to him. Allowing an Eradar problem to become a Universe one. And then he landed on Dreanor, and placed uninvolved people in the firing line of what in many ways was an Eradar civil war. Allowing Kil Jaeden to use the health and culture of those people against them, resulting in the destruction of THEIR entire world.
Also, as a note, the Orcs have never been able to escape their connection to the First Horde. Ever. That legacy even repeatedly shows up in BfA. The Trolls have always been on the receiving end of their heritage. And the latter committed no real major issues outside of Hakkar. Goblins get plenty of flak, despite their lack of focus. Only Alliance races, even those who are of the same generation, are allowed to “cherry pick” out the “good ones”. While the way Blizz writes things, you’ll constantly see Alliance players getting to paint with broad strokes about Horde races (we’re all evil). I mean, just look at the premise of this OP if you want to see some semblance of that.
Technically, Kil Jaeden working through his puppet Gul’Dan brought the First Horde to Azeroth. So, since they were essentially a controlled slave race through the Fel Taint by that point, still an “Eradar” problem. Or at least a Legion one, orchestrated by an Eradar. As for the Second War, well … you could consider that a consequence of the First. With Doomhammer finding his planet destroyed and his remaining people trapped on a world that rightly wanted revenge for what the Orcs were forced to do while compelled by the Legion.
The Draenei brought that evil upon the Orcish peoples. And I do wonder, had they had the warning that the Legion had found their homes before the Orcs were used against them … would the Draenei have abandoned Draenor and its people to the Legion and ran again? Or would they have stood and fought with the people they deliberately neglected to warn about their evil brethren hunting them? Somehow, considering Velen’s disposition … I doubt the latter; and the Orcish peoples were doomed one way or another the moment his people settled on Draenor.
Probably. They did that already many times prior to Draenor.
I don’t place blame on Velen, though. He was stuck, essentially presented with an unwinnable situation. I don’t think he and the orcs stood any chance against Kil’Jaeden and the Eredar. And if the rest of the Legion joined, it’s F.
So it’s either run and stay alive, leaving a trail of destruction behind, or fight, likely die… and the Legion would just keep going.
I do, because it was his failure to act in a prompt way back on Argus that attributed to this problem. The Krokul were right, he was a coward who ran; and forced who knows how many innocents on various worlds to pick up the tab for him and his people’s mistakes. He settled a populated world (that was low priority for the Legion due to Draenor lacking a World Soul) knowing that it likely was only a matter of time before Kil’Jaeden and Archimond found them again and came hunting.
His choices doomed many other people’s. Which is why I find it much harder to not say that perhaps there was a tiny bit of karma happening when the Orcs were turned into weapons to slaughter them; as the Draenei settling on Draenor had long doomed every single race on that planet. They would die or be enslaved, so the Draenei could prosper and relax, even for a very short amount of time relative to their own lifespans … before having to run again.
The Orcs did the same thing, and are equally as guilty, ship them both to outland to die off slowly as the remains of that world slowly crumbles into dust.
Yeah, i assume it’s because of that Velen doesn’t feel much animosity towards orcs. Though tbh i would expect him to show more guilt about his unfortunate situation.
Honestly, this is part of the reason I do hope the AU Lightbound are allowed to manifest again. There is a lot of “hitting close to home” for both the Orcish people and the Draenei for what happened on that world. So much so that if you read Hellscream, Grom actually does come off as a Pre Second War Ner’zhul (with Garrosh actually being his Kil’jaeden).
Its sort of sad that any nuance for AU Grom was lost because of the middle part of that expansions story being gutted, and so much of his motivations being locked within a pre-expansion book. “Draenor Is Free” was awful, but he was likely to get “redeemed” in some fashion if the expansion had been allowed to play out, with how he was settup. Garrosh really used his visions from the future against his Father to pursue his own racist agenda.
The entire ‘part of this race is responsible for not stopping what another group does’ seems bad to me. You can only do so much. The Draenei seeming lacked the strength to stop their corrupted kin. And even then, some did fight back the entire of the time.
Again, people love to hate on the Draenei race, I guess.
They didn’t, but why is it that the Prophet Velen (one of the three leaders of the Eradar people, and their spiritual leader) allowed things to get so bad before he had to make that choice? That is the issue I have. The Azshara issue is similar. This allowance of a racial problem to grow so out of control that it becomes a everyone problem, and then only an extreme response is left available.
Regardless, my issue with Velen’s choice largely comes after his escape from Argus. He apparently did that “settle and run” thing several times before they arrived on Draenor, which means he knew the Legion would eventually find them again. Kil Jaedin had a promise to keep after all. And when they did, if they realized they were found, the Draenei would run again and leave the peoples of Draenor to pick up the bill. He damned entire planets to destruction or enslavement by his kin and the Legion, for what would amount to brief periods of reprieve and peace for his absurdly long lived people. That is understandable from his perspective … but sort of monstrous.
I just want to point out that you’re trying to have it both ways. You’re saying the goblin incident wasn’t so bad because goblins survived. However, the Taurajo civilians who were allowed to escape did not. They had no where to go, and were slaughtered by Razormanes.
Because I don’t think there was any heading it off at any point. Sargeras initially tricked as to who he was and his goal. By the time Velen realized the situation, it was too late.
Again, individuals and groups can only do so much. There’s no need to view any of it racially, just as a problem.
This mindset just seems particularly short sighted to me. Take what we know.
The Burning Legion had plans to ultimately destroy the universe.
The Burning Legion was never going to stop chasing the Draenei.
The question is then, what can be done? We know from Velen’s perspective the following.
Velen knew that his people would never have a chance to resist the Legion with force until they found a world to settle. Until then, the Genedar was the draenei’s only true home.
Ultimately the only choice was to eventually settle if they didn’t accept inevitable defeat. And really, the choice was more or less made for them due to the fact they could only run so far on the power they had. The Genedar was failing by the time they reached Draenor, so they were out of options.
They were damned regardless if the Legion was not stopped. It wasn’t as though this was a decision was just for fun.
Just because the Legion were planning on eradicating all life doesn’t mean that Velen’s decision to settle where he did knowing that he would make that world a target of the Legion isn’t really iffy.
In fact, while Draenor would have likely been destroyed eventually by the Legion if they just did their thing, it was a low priority world without a world soul; which had no high magic civilizations left to call attention to it, and little to no real Void influence. It was very unlikely to be destroyed, or even found, any time soon. Azeroth survived 10k years with Sargaras even knowing where it was.
On top of this, they didn’t even bother to warn them. Even IF Draenor was eventually doomed some point way down the line, the Draenei going there sped up their execution rapidly. But couldn’t be bothered to mention that, to prevent potential exploitation of Orcish spirituality by their evil kin. No … the Draenei are not to blame for anything ever. Like all Alliance races. Purity incarnate.
It was going to be a target either way. It is a question of if the payoff for possibly making it a target sooner is worthwhile.
Again, here were the choices.
Keep running, eventually run out of power, die. Allow the universe and Draenor to be wiped out eventually.
Settle Draenor where they might eventually gain the ability to resist the Legion properly. Accepting the risk it puts forward in the short term for long term gains.
I think taking the risk for trying to save the universe instead of just dying is better than a 10,000 year stay of execution (if we’re being optimistic, seeing as so few planets existed currently, I doubt it’d have been that much time again).
I’m of the opinion telling a race like the Orcs about it wouldn’t have done anything good. Either they’d blame the Draenei or be easier to flip on them.
I understand why Velen did what he did, but your essential argument here is that because the Legion MIGHT have eventually found Draenor (a backwater planet with limited void corruption and no world soul, so very low priority/low presence) in any number of thousands or tens of thousands of years … it was allright that Velen made sure they would be doomed sooner than later? And left them exposed to having their religion and health exploited by an angry ex-peer and his grudgematch with Velen? And they didn’t settle Draenor to “save the universe”, no more than they did any of the other planets they settled before and left to die.
Well … that’s horrific. The argument is essentially, the races of Draenor might have been damned some-time down the road; so its perfectly fine to ensure their eradication now … so that the Draenei can live a tiny fraction of their expected lifespans in peace? I would assume you also handwave away the Orcs genocide of the Draenei then, since Kil’Jaeden was always “inevitably” going to find and slaughter them … and the Orcs were just hapless pawns?
I consider it enough of an assurance that it wasn’t a question of if, but a question of when. Again, almost every planet has been wiped out by now. Azeroth is one of the few remaining places out there. The Legion has wiped out something like a million million planets (I forget if the Illidan novel says thousand thousand or million million).
So it was either run out of power and die. Let the universe be doomed.
Or put down roots when they had to and accept the risk.
I will quote it again in full.
Velen knew that his people would never have a chance to resist the Legion with force until they found a world to settle. Until then, the Genedar was the Draenei’s only true home.
But traveling through the cosmos required incredible amounts of energy. The naaru’s spirits had to bear the burden of this extended journey, and over time, they weakened. As their radiant energies flagged, the Genedar threatened to fall apart.
The naaru knew that the time for running had come to an end. They found a world the Legion had not yet touched, and they called on their dwindling powers in a desperate attempt to reach it.
Velen and his renegades would name this world Draenor, or “Exiles’ Refuge.”
They had to settle Draenor because they were running out of power and they would only have the power to fight back if they settled a planet.
No, the argument is that Draenor was damned regardless. Better taking a chance to resist instead of giving up and dying.
You have this unfounded optimism that if the Draenei accepted allowing themselves to be killed, everything would have just worked out for Draenor.
And you seem committed to whitewashing any culpability of the Dreanei in the destruction of Draenor. Because “they were doomed anyway … eventually … at some point”. You also seem convinced that the Draenei were planning on using their settlement of Draenor to “fight the Legion”, when in reality there was no indication of that. In fact, one would assume that if they had intended on making that planet “A Last Stand”, they would have included the locals; rather than leaving them exposed to be manipulated.
You do realize that your argument here is that every species on Draenor outside of the Draenei was expendable, because “maybe” Vellen sometime down the road would actually fight back and defeat the Legion? Wow … that’s very “Ends justify the means” isn’t it? Especially since it was Illidan and the Lightforged who actually did stay on Argus to fight who largely attributed to the Legion’s defeat. Velen truly didn’t do much beyond be at the right place at the right time. Well, that and creating the Vindecaar out of the wreckage of the Exodar.
