Will the Horde revert to evil again?

Lore Story Forum
102

Mind quoting my post that you keep repeating this so I have some context? I assume it was something like “If the Horde destroys an Alliance town with innocents in it the Alliance is justified in doing the same” which would at the very least not make the Alliance as evil as the Horde since it’s being done in retaliation, which is all the Alliance seems to do these days.

Jaina said that knowing the Horde were abusing Dalaran’s neutrality and doing nothing makes him just as guilty as aiding them himself, and she was right.

Moot now since the Legion is gone. I’m talking about a time when the Horde was a proven threat to the Alliance. Now if Jaina had uncovered that there was Sunreaver traitors AFTER Garrosh was disposed then it would be safe to simply investigate the organisation.

Again Legion is done for.

And again, the Legion are no longer a threat but surprise surprise the councilmen who were traitors to the Legion ended up escaping.

It isn’t the most logical thought, it’s more multiple choice. Either “The Sunreaver faction is mostly corrupt” or “There were just some bad apples”. Choosing the former over the latter is basically her putting the Alliance’s safety first over the innocent Sunreavers freedom, which is understandable.

Well I mean, when it comes to worshipping her they shouldn’t, but if Elune finally revealed herself and told everyone on Azeroth to follow her cause, they should definitely have SOME neggling thought in the back of her mind that there’s a chance she isn’t entirely benevolent, you know, just incase.

I care about rights, I just know that rights aren’t more or less important then safety ESPECIALLY when it concerns wartime and whose freedom and safety is on the line. The permanent safety of her entire faction versus the temporary freedom of a group with proven traitors, not really a hard choice.

Yeah it sucks they tried to fight back against one of the most powerful spellcasters on Azeroth instead of just being arrested during Wartime hey it’s their choice.

HAHAHAHA oh yeh she could have investigated more…please

“Hey Sunreavers, you have quite a bit of traitors, we’re going to investigate you now to make sure you don’t have more people secretly aiding the Horde while in Dalaran”
“Sure thing Jaina go ahead we have nothing to hide-ok everyone our cover’s blown, steal everything you can from this city, sabotage what you can and escape to the Horde before the dumb Blonde realises what happened”

Letting the Horde forces use Dalaran resources to steal from Darnassus while saying nothing IS being treacherous what the hell are you smoking.

Yes which I did for the benefit of anyone thinking of wasting their time proving me wrong on a subject I already know I am right about. Might aswell try to convince me that the world is flat or 2+2=orange.

It is defeat when she made an attempt. If I refuse to play chess against someone who starts with all their peices while I’m only allowed a king that’s not defeat. If I foolishly try anyway then stop playing a few turns in when I realise it’s impossible to win, that is defeat.

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Ashenvale is already alliance

104

You made this comment. Then refuse to really make a stance if killing defenseless children is cool when asked several times.

To me, unnecessarily killing defenseless children is evil regardless.
And the point at question was ‘can the Alliance be more evil’ it was ‘can the Alliance be evil’.
But you ‘care about rights’ but also are pretty meh about child killing.

You’re just a person with a bad moral system. Which is, again, really weird in the context of trying to vilify the Horde as evil.

Jaina can say whatever she wants. She’s not infallible.

The Twilight Hammer is a Void cult, not a Legion cult.
And the Void Lords still exist either way. As do numerous minions elsewhere.

Nobody asked for purges of the Draenei when the Legion was around. Because it was unnecessary.

This is a false dilemma because it precludes the option of looking into it more before making a conclusion at the time.

So everybody should constantly be going off the worst case scenario? Kill Anduin because worst case scenario, he’s going to betray everyone? Kill Tyrande because worst case scenario, she’s going to betray everyone. This worst case scenario logic can apply to anything and isn’t reasonable when deciding how to act.

You can’t say you care about rights but then not actually support their use. At the end of the day, you’re fine imprisoning and killing people based off basically no evidence. That’s not someone who cares about rights.

Much like it was Jaina’s choice to say rights don’t matter, which you support.
You’re cool with killing people who are not cool with being abused.

Yep. She’s one of the most powerful spellcasters on Azeroth. She can read minds, teleport groups of people in an instant, and disable archmages with a wave of her hand. Not to mention she had the Silver Covenant and other Dalaran forces behind her.

‘Hurr durr, imprison and kill’ was dumber than ‘let’s use our brains and research the situation’.

Being blackmailed into silence isn’t treacherous. At worst it is negligence.

Or might as well convince a flat earther they’re wrong.

No it isn’t, lol. If the rules of the game are being made up they’re free to define the win condition however they please.

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105

Err dude? If you answer a war crime with another war crime, you don’t have the moral high ground lol Moraly you stood down to your enemy’s level.

Like ok you can have an emotional explanation that the person is being driven by vengeance but…to try and morably justify it? Yeah…no.

So the mere SUSPICION of a crime being comited justifies killing and imprisoning EVERY SINGLE PERSON on the vicinity because of their race? Like if you have for example a blood elf mage there who had nothing to do with it and you blast him to oblivion just because he shares a genetic semblance with the actual guilty people, will that be justice? No. That would be abuse of power.

For someone who claims to be all logical and to have the moral high ground…you certainly kinda don’t. lol

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106

It’s not anymore.

107

If both sides are so noble. Whats the fighting is all about then?

Let’s just do some jousting every few months as a festival, and call it a day.

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108

What like, just for the fun of it? Ofcourse not, in worst case scenarios though?

Let me put it this way, after Garrosh manabomed Theramore, if Jaina did indeed destroy Orgrimmar in retaliation I wouldn’t have considered that evil. And I’d put the blame on the Horde for not disposing of Garrosh and issuing an apology to the Alliance.

Children died in WW2 when the nuke was dropped or when German towns got firebombed, but most people wouldn’t consider that evil.

She’s also right in that situation. Looking the other way when you have knowledge of spies/enemies in your midst is treason.

Because they already self purged by distancing themselves from the Eredar.

And there’s a difference between people of your own faction potentially being spies and a group belonging to a faction who has waged genocidal war against you but promised to be neutral while in a city, then going ahead and stabbing you in the back.

Because that option is stupid and just gives them the chance to escape

No I mean, simply worshipping and having faith in someone shouldn’t consider worst case scenarios, they should only come into play when being wrong about something could have disastrous consequences.

Sorry but the Sunreavers being traitorous in two seperate scenarios in such a short time frame is too suspect, meaning either the rest of the group either knew what was happening but purposefully did nothing or were too stupid to see what was happening.

Dalaran was the one being abused by tolerating a treasonous faction who lied about being neutral. If Jaina didn’t purge them then the city would have been a free for all of people just using it to help their faction and whichever faction they kicked out first declaring war against them because they are basically aiding their enemies.

She’s not omnipotent and Dalaran also houses most of the other most powerful spellcasters which makes the power level between her and others less steep.

What? No she can’t. Show any source regarding this that happened before WOD. And let’s say this is true, let’s say she can read minds. Are we talking “Putting her hand on a persons head and getting a general feel of what they are thinking that could possibly be tricked if they used magic of their own” or Professor X level, “Can read the minds of everyone within 100 miles with complete accuracy”.

If it was the latter, or if Blizzard retcons it to the latter, then I take back everything I said and admit how wrong I was about the whole Dalaran situation because Jaina should have used her Godlike telepathy to pinpoint every single traitorous Sunreaver in Dalaran and the planet and mass teleported them to the Violet Citedal and not touch the innocents.

If it’s the former it changes nothing because the Sunreavers could have just used a chain of command where people are only aware of what tasks they have to carry out and not other members, so even mind reading Aethes would have done nothing.

Which she did, and put them in a place they couldn’t escape.

If the Sunreaver faction as a majorty WAS putting the Horde first over Dalaran’s neutrality which even we as the players don’t even know is true or not, as soon as anyone started sniffing around to see how deep the corruption went they would have bailed immediately, not before doing more damage. And no, even “Godmode Jaina” would’ve been too late to stop them.

Like how powerful do people think Jaina is? If she’s powerful enough to be able to investigate the Sunreavers and INSTANTLY capture every single one of them the moment they try and escape or betray her then why doesn’t she use her omnipotent powers to just teleport Garrosh in the Violet Citadel?

It is treason when you are in a position of power to report all possible attempts of treachery. If someone in the military saw spies from ISIS or China or whatever operating on local soil and said nothing, whether or not they were blackmailed they would be tried for treason.

Except people who believe the purge wasn’t justified are the flat eathers.

No the win condition is just impossible and the only winning move is not to play.

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Every time I see this topic come up it’s like “oh…it’s justify a pogrom day again?”. Really boggles my mind as ALL blood elves in Dalaran were targeted. So random blood elf shop girl is interned or potentially gleefully murdered based solely on her race.

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110

Precisely.

It’s like:

You have a serial killer living in a neighborhood. All police knows is that he’s an adult white male. Police decides to just secure the perimeter around the neighboorhood and KILL ALL ADULT WHITE MALES instead of investigating and trying to find out who he is.

Like no one on their right mind would try to morably justify this as correct. Jaina’s situation on dalaran was the exact same thing, she did killed a ton of inocent people who where just minding their own business cause…it was easier and people try to justify it, like…just no!

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111

There was no suspicion, Aethes saying nothing while he saw Garrosh’s forces use Dalaran’s portals was a crime. And it’s not imprisoning them because of their race, but because their group was trusted to stay neutral and too many of them have proved treacherous and the risk of not immediately detaining them all and sorting them out later was too high for Jaina to reasonably bother with. The fact that all the Sunreavers were Blood Elves and all the Blood Elves in Dalaran were Sunreavers(as far as I know, I might be wrong about that) is just happenstance.

If there were non-Blood Elf sunreavers, even consisting of typically Alliance races Jaina would have detained them to. And if there were non-Sunreaver Blood Elves present in Dalaran Jaina wouldn’t have touched them(This might have happened infact I’m not too sure).

Yes that would be an abuse of power, luckily that’s not what happened.

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That whole paragraph is a false equivalency to what happened in Dalaran.

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She was walking on the streets killing EVERY SINGLE BLOOD ELF SHE SAW.

You expect me to believe she just ‘‘guessed’’ that 100% of an entire race residing in that city where involved without any previous investigation? Just because she had a hunch?

Again. Punishing INDIVIDUALS for what you THINK their group should do.

And yes you are wrong, as far as we all know, there was more than just sunreavers on that city.

She did, again. On the quest, she was walking on the streets, killing blood elves, like ALL OF THEM.

It did. You just don’t want to admit it did cause that would imply you admiting you are wrong…which aparently is very hard

It’s the same situation. The person is punishing people indiscriminately because CERTAIN people who happen to look like them did something wrong.

If you want justice, you need to punish the ACTUAL GUILTY, not just kill everyone, call it a day and think you are morably correct, cause you are not.

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114

Again, sounds pretty easy logistically for the Alliance to be evil.

So you’re cool with killing defenseless children. So you only dislike murder why, because it is wasteful?

No, I think most people would/do.

No she isn’t. Not speaking up when blackmailed is negligence at worst.

No, we’re talking about the Sargerei. Draenei traitors, not Eredar.

The Sargerei were joining the Legion. You know, an omnicidal faction?

Better take the small outcome of some escaping with minor harm than abusing and killing hundreds (guessing). Or at least it is if you care about rights.

But in this, anything could have disastrous consequences in a worst case scenario.

That’s a really dumb conclusion to reach. Again, the Church of the Holy Light and Draenei didn’t need such brutal culling of innocent members.

Unless she did any due diligence investigating.

She doesn’t need to be. The bar for this investigation is incredibly low for someone of her power and resources.

Except she had them all in her corner. She disabled the Sunreaver leader easily. No one else of power was contesting her.

Why before WoD? One of the first BfA quests has her doing it.

Literally seeing what they saw.

Debatable. Again, she’s one of the strongest magic users in the world with almost the entire mage city supporting her.

At the end of the day, I value the rights and lives of all the innocents more than the low potential of minor harm in question.

She doesn’t need to do all that…
Your putting up a straw man regarding due diligence I expect of her.

Questionable. They were negligent in their duty, but made no wilfull action free of duress.

Other way around, champ.

No, when a game is made either the designer or players can pick a win condition together. It isn’t up to you to decide what their goal was in posting. Whereas the goal and rules of chess are made by the designer. Otherwise it isn’t really a competition. Just individuals with goals.

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115

Allrighty:

  • The attempted assassination of the Horde’s new Warchief by two high ranking members of the Alliance. With no concrete reason for it, either before or after. This act is not only waived away by a slap on the wrist to both Genn and Rogers; its only once allowed to even be considered on the Horde side. Despite it being a clear act of war.
  • The Slaughter of Horde civilians in Silithus, with the Alliance’s attack on the Bilgewater. Who were doing nothing more than harvesting a natural resource that the Alliance had no claim over; well before either side were contacted by Magni. Another clear act of war swept under a rug, and justified after the fact really badly with Saffy.
  • The filling of Orgrimmar so full of SI:7 agents you could literally trip over them, to send the deliberate message to the Horde that “The Alliance was always watching”. In response to the Gathering, an event that in no way was an act of hostility aganst the Alliance. Another act of clear aggression by the Alliance that wasn’t allowed to count.

But … again … the Horde “betrayed” the Alliance with the WoT.

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116

Pretty sure the example I gave last time this came up was this.

Two Iraqi nationals working for the government ended up selling state secrets to Iraq. Should we just arrest all Iraqi nationals in the country just in-case?

No, of course not.

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117

XD Exactly. You can’t logicaly punish an entire group / ethnicity / race because of what a specific group of them did.

That is unthinkable and impossibe to morably justify. It’s the kind of stuff crazy tyrants and dictators do.

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118

Before? The two have blenty of reason to do it, before! Sylvanas and the forsaken destroyed their home, devastated their people and friends, i mean, it was a clear concrete reason if you ask me

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Not canon, admitted by Blizzard to be an ingame-bug and even if it wasn’t it’s retconned now so I have no desire to argue incorrect/outdated lore. Everyone she killed resisted arrest.

That’s what happens when they are a flight risk, or in the Wow Universe a teleport risk. IRL, if you are at war and a group of people from a country you are at war with who promised neutrality had people from that group compromise that neutrality you don’t risk them escaping punishment.

Detaining them is barely punishment, they weren’t held forever btw. IRL we don’t prove someone is guilty beyond doubt before arresting them, we arrest them if we suspect they are guilty and imprison them if we prove it.

There were Blood Elves in the city who weren’t Sunreavers? Then that just proves my point it wasn’t racially motivated, or do you mean there were groups that weren’t Sunreavers? Umm yes I know that and they weren’t in suspicion for committing treason.

Again, not Canon. Sucks huh, how things you see happen in game aren’t 100% canon? If I see a major lore character hover 15 feet off the ground upside down I can assume it was just a technical bug then them having gained anti-gravity powers.

Again, she didn’t indiscriminately kill, resisting arrest sure, but that happens.

No it’s not, let me change your paragraph so it IS the same situation:

You have a neutral neighbourhood consisting of two groups who belong to factions at war with each other, one of these factions lead by a maniac hellbent on wiping out the other. Two people from one and only one of these groups have been outed as serial killers and aiding the faction they belong to inside the neighbourhood despite it not being allowed. A person from the other group has decided that the group with two proven serial killers cannot be trusted, nor should they be allowed the chance to escape while the war still wages incase they decide to kill more people. They are all detained and any resisting arrest are killed but no-one is killed for any other reason.

There, a bit long but more accurate and more contextual.

Yeah in a completely stupid and out of character sort of way.

Some, yeah. Most? I highly doubt it.

Again, if Aethes was an ordinary citizen with no authority or way of protecting himself sure. As leader of the Sunreavers? Absolutely unacceptable. Him not saying anything when it was happening is one thing, him taking the secret to his grave till he was outed is another.

Ah mb I missed that.

I meant the Draenei were their own faction(Alliance). We have to accept potential spies in our own group because there is no alternative. If Jaina had found spies in Theramore she didn’t have to go on lockdown because it would be reasonable to assume not everyone is compromised because she would have known everyone from Theramore since its inception, there was no such promise when it came to a group aligned with the Horde.

If the Sunreavers were all or mostly traitors and they knew they were eventually, but not immediately going to be found out they could have done a LOT of harm. Off the top of my head, I remember the most recent lore about the Purge of Dalaran putting the death toll at a total of 5. Anyone feel free to give sources to the contrary.

How could having and not having faith in something make any difference in a worse case scenario, Elune is a Void Lord who is empowered by people having (false) faith in her?

And give the Sunreavers the chance to escape.

I’m talking about being able to investigate while simultaneously stopping any traitor from stealing, compromising and escaping. Big deal investigating to find out exactly how deep the corruption goes when all the traitorous elements of the Sunreaver are long gone.

Uhh yes because she wasted no time imprisoning them. If she did anything other then immediately detain any Sunreaver she came across they wouldn’t be ‘in her corner’.

Obviously because if she learned to gain mind reading powers AFTER the purge it wouldn’t have made a difference.

What? One at a time, lot of good that’ll do.

Ofcourse she does, what the hell is the point of investigating how guilty the Sunreavers are if every guilty party escapes to help out the Horde directly?

There’s nothing questionable about it. Failing to recognize spies under your nose is being negligent, being fully aware and looking the other way blackmail or no blackmail is treason.

yeah whatever

You know there are variations of chess right? A superior chess player may agree to rules that handicap him to put him on more fair playing field and he could realistically lose.

If he chooses to play a variation he cannot possibly win while thinking he could that’s his fault.

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Well you’re definitely wrong about After since Sylvanas was trying to enslave an innocent Vrykul, one who was helping us in the war against the Legion. Whether they had justification before or not is a confusing mess due to how Legion levelling makes it unclear how events unfold in chronological order.

Pretty sure the Horde struck first, or at least it was retconned that way later. The Goblin miners killing the Dwarf archaeologists or something to keep the Azerite a secret from the Alliance.

Oh yeah, sending spies, so evil.

Na Sylvanas murdered Calia when she tried to convince them to join the Alliance to join their families, that’s clear aggression.

Anyway I’m going to bed now so won’t respond for a while.

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Where exactly is Blizzard admiting that? Gonna need some links there buddy cause I have a hard time believing Blizzard would just let this pass.

Oh how convenient. Everything that proves you wrong is not canon…riiiiight…

You do when you value life. Cause it’s better than going on a rampage and killing inocent people. You seem to favor easy solutions over the right one.

No…we imprison them if we have good reasons to. And your knowledge of how due process works is…frighteningly bad cause that’s not even CLOSE on how it works.

She decided to kill blood elves indiscriminately, that is racialy motivated. Are you even trying?

:clap: Just :clap: because :clap: it :clap: proves :clap: you :clap: wrong :clap: doesn’t :clap: mean :clap: it’s :clap: not :clap: cannon.

She’s one of the most powerful mages in Azeroth, an ice mage at that and she doesn’t know how to subdue foes she isn’t sure are guilty? Suuuure…

Just…stop it man, you’re embarassing yourself and coming off as someone who doesn’t know right from wrong.

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