Will the Horde ever be relevant again?
Then I’m glad we can agree that the Horde’s invasion of Gilneas was justified after Varian began the Cata/MoP war when he declared war on the Horde in Undercity. Sure, one could maybe argue that some kind of armistice was signed between Wrath and Cata… but luckily you illustrated to us that it is justifiable to start a war based on your enemy’s past aggressions. I’m glad we can come to agreement on this, that the destruction of Gilneas was just.
(Obviously, I don’t believe this. But you need to be careful with the logic that you’re clearly applying by the seat of your pants to justify an absolutely silly hatred of a fictional character.)
I would agree, if Gilneas didn’t cede from the old alliance years prior, and never rejoined the new one until the events of cataclysm. The horde attacked an independent nation unprovoked, who had done nothing against them.
My words are not born from hate. I simply cannot agree that Genn wasn’t justified in his attack in stormheim, because Sylvanas and the Horde never answered or made ammends for their crimes. And i’m not moving a millimeter from that position.
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I see. I suppose this illustrates that there’s no reason really for anyone to discuss much with you further on a forum such as this. Best of luck to you in Shadowlands.
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Be real, the only reason to argue with people on this forum is to get other people on your side, not to change people’s minds. I doubt anyone else here is any different in having their minds changed(If they say they are they’re lieing.)
Good point about Gilneas being Independent.
A better example of possible justification would be if Garrosh attacked an Alliance nation in response to Varian declaring war in WoTLK.
There are many different points one can hold. But this one is simply one I will not cede. I atleast not with the information available.
Let me ask you. Why do you find it such a detestable position to hold? That Genn was justified because of what Sylvanas did, and what she didn’t do?
I would gladly accept an “evil” third faction at this point. The Anduin and Friends story has become very boring and predictable. It’s not even exciting that Thrall, Jaina and Baine get kidnapped because we all know they’re all fine and nothing happens.
Yawn. 
(although there’s always the possibility that they are all Dreadlords, I submit that we should execute them just in case)
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I disagree, in that there is much to be learned about when arguing about lore, especially on this subject in particular. The Gilneas story plot is spread out between questlines on opposing factions, and a comic that people might not even know about, and with tangentially relevant background removed for the Cataclysm revamp. Even if you have seen all of the story the chronology can still be very confusing.
It’s not too uncommon to have people argue in good faith on story forum, where you can learn new perspectives on things.
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Genn was understandable for what he did, he was not justified in what he did. Not at that time, under those circumstances. Even the justification of her endangering Odyn’s participation against the Legion by targeting Eyir is made moot by the fact that he attempted to cut the Head off the Horde right after they lost their last leader; which means he more so endangered the efforts against the Legion by doing so. By risking crippling one of the two world superpowers in that fight.
And to be perfectly honest, all of this would have been fine if Blizzard didn’t constantly insulate the Alliance faction from the few grey acts they do commit. This was a clear breaking of the peace, and an act of War by the Alliance; which was subsequently effectively turned into a declaration of War by Anduin’s lack of response to it. This event and the lack of consequences for it was enough to justify the WoT on its own, but even with “extra” aggression added on top of it … The Horde apparently “betrayed” the Alliance and “broke the peace” with the WoT.
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I remember Blizzard promising that both sides would be able to claim the other started the Fourth War. But only one side is actually validated by the narrative, no matter how much logic is in the alternative view.
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I can’t agree because it simply means Sylvanas and the Horde would never answer for what they did. Much like how now they most likely won’t answer for their crimes, despite doing something even worse than during the cataclysm. If someone won’t make ammends, they should have to pay for it in other ways.
And Stormheim could have been avoided if Sylvanas reached out to Genn personally. Instead, she choose the dumbest route. And she was punished for it.
“The Alliance attacking the Horde out of the blue is awful, and reprehensible, and shows we cannot trust them ever! We should wipe them off the map.”
Horde desperately sweeps the last couple decades under the rug.
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Sylvanas has no reason to need to reach out to Genn. She has no reason to make amends, nor inclination to. Genn, being a part of the Alliance by the conclusion of MoP, agreed to the Peace Treaty signed. At that point it does not matter what justice he believes he deserves, taking action like he did breaks such treaty and thus the Alliance is at war with the Horde.
And to suggest otherwise would suggest that such treaties with the Alliance are worth next to nothing, and that they can attack the Horde whenever they so choose … in response to any past slight they deem fit. Only being protected from being the aggressors by Blizzard’s fixated need to shelter the Alliance from their own actions; to maintain this absurd Super Friends image of purity they’ve been written with. Twice now the Alliance declares War on the Horde; due to an imagined slight that cost the Horde immeasurably as well; follows this up with repeated aggressive acts … but none of it is ever allowed to count. Because the Horde HAS to be the evil aggressors.
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No, they helped the rest of the country recover.
They did have the Nuremberg trials, but they never blamed “Germans”. They blamed “HItler and his followers”. Just as Blizzard is putting the blame on “Sylvanas and her followers”.
Blizzard has said that Garrosh (which BfA is a repeat of) was “literally Hitler”. And they have a lot of parallels. The rounding up of Sylvanas loyalists and leading them off in chains is a lot like the denazification actions following WWII.
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Ah, ah, stop, thats not right. they indeed blame the Germans for the ww2 too, but german was needet, for the cold war. So the Morgentau-Plan was never Realised
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So you’re telling me that despite everything the Horde has done, they should not try to make ammends, of any kind? I understand that it’s easy to want to pretend that the past doesn’t matter when your faction haven’t been the one being attacked again and again, and unable to retalitate. And when they do retalitate, you come up with this drivel. Bah humbug.
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That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying Genn is in no real position to demand such from Sylvanas once the peace accords where in place. Any such restitution should have been included within the peace talks, and who’s absence in such talks is not sufficient excuse for him to do whatever he wants now that he and his country is a member state of the Alliance. He is no longer just and only a representative of Gilneas, he is a representative of the Alliance too.
Not that he has ever really requested “amends” from her anyway. Because he doesn’t want “amends”. He wants her dead for killing his son, something that unlike his city cannot be brought back or rebuilt. There is absolutely nothing she or the Horde could give him that would placate him, so this argument is irrelevant. Its also moving goalposts. What Genn did was an Act of War against the Horde. Anduin’s lack of response to it was effectively a declaration of War. Or, at least this should have been the case if Bizz would allow anything the Alliance did to actually count. And not handwave it away or bury it under a mountain of justifications. Like they always do.
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Most likely something will try to hyjack it once again. Or another relapse.
who knows? 
Here’s the funny thing about Stormheim that a lot of people tend to forget. It’s actually Anduin who sends Admiral Rogers, Pappa Genn and the PC to stormheim to spy on Sylvanas and retaliate if they find that the forsaken are up to no good.
Which is when Rogers basically says if there isn’t anything, they’ll make something up anyway and Genn remarks that he Doesn’t hunt and not go for the kill or something along those lines. Anduin knew from the get go what Pappa Genn intended to do and he turned a blind eye to it. It’s why Anduin gives Genn nothing more than a light wrist slap later on.
Doesn’t make it right, but let’s not pretend that Anduin didn’t know what was going on.
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