I will say this is really just an off topic personal attack. He doesn’t even challenge any points or opinions. He just calls me names and invents intentions.
I think I sufficiently answered the claim that I am expressing my true opinion. In an effort to get back on topic and make this less about me, I will let the personal attacks go. If he wants to discuss a topical point, I would be happy to discuss it.
Saurfang had the Alliance’s assault at Stormheim in mind when he agreed with Sylvanas. He had actual Alliance aggression to point to and convince him.
Also, Calia and Voss take the long way to Orgrimmar to avoid the Alliance. Alliance aggression is a thing in lore that Horde Characters are concerned about.
I play Alliance, too. But as far as opinions go, I wouldn’t mind if the Factions were merged on a Gameplay level. If that means removing the Horde or the Alliance or both to make the Player Pool united - good. I hate looking through 2 pools of Players when I am looking for groups. But that is more about Gameplay and less about lore.
If my Human Pally needs a shield and so does my Vulpera Shammy, it would be easy to just have the Ilgynoth groups in one listing. Instead of logging over. But again, that is more a Gameplay thing for me.
I saw it as trolling, but I trust you when you say you weren’t. I’ve simply had the misfortune to meet a lot of Horde players who seemingly delight making Alliance players angry. Sorry for calling you out.
I will say this. Genn attacking Sylvanas was certainly agression, but it wasn’t unjustified. It was in part because of her seemingly betraying the Alliance at the broken shore, but more than anything it was retaliation for her invading gilneas, making it uninhabitable and displacing it’s population with the intent to genocide them, and finally killing the prince and heir of said kingdom. Because of her refusal to try and explain why she did what she did or in any way atone for what she did, Genn had every right to seek compensation as he saw fit. It just turns out that he settled for attacking her in stormheim, and destroying her precious new lantern. Tit for tat.
This depends on what you personally view as justified. I think you’ll find most Horde players who feel the attack wasn’t warranted simply don’t have the same idea of what constitutes a justified attack as you do.
For me personally? I don’t consider Genn’s attack justified, but I do consider it understandable.
His desire for revenge for his son and kingdom is entirely understandable. I can sympathize with that. And honestly when I saw the final cutscene I was rooting for Genn even as a Horde character.
Attacking Sylvanas for it years after that war ended with no warning is not justified, though. Because that is a hostile action that could trigger a new war right in the middle of a Legion invasion, which could then result in all life on Azeroth being wiped out.
To be justified he’d need actual evidence that Sylvanas betrayed them at the Broken Shore, not just an assumption. Evidence she was in the wrong now and that her actions were going to benefit the Legion and doom us all.
He didn’t have that, though. He was pursuing revenge without bothering to get the full story first.
Of course as I’ve said many times before the whole situation could’ve been avoided if the Horde and Alliance bothered to use actual diplomats.
It should be noted that the attack itself wasn’t what convinced him, but Anduin’s response to it that pushed him over the edge to agreeing with Sylvanas. I mean, she was totally right that Genn, Tyrande, and even Shaw to some degree where pushing Anduin towards conflict with the Horde.
But Anduin’s total lack of a substantive response to Stormheim (even with Roger’s who he had full authority to punish) signaled to Saurfang one of two things. Either A: Anduin at worst was complicit and approving in that attack on the Horde’s new Warchief; or B: More likely Anduin was too weak to resist the calls to attack the Horde from his elders and advisors. Which, it turns out, he was able to… and that’s the only reason the Alliance did not full on attack the Horde first.
But no one held Sylvanas accountable for what she did to Gilneas either. That kind of grudge simply cannot be swept aside. Especially since Sylvanas nevee tried to make amends for what she did. If she did, I would agree it would be unjustified. But it was her lack of response that made Genn attack her, not the other way around.
Garrosh hated her, and its hard to hold her accountable for what he had intended as a means to weaken her forces significantly and draw the Alliance’s attention north and away from Kalimdor. She didn’t fall for his scheme, can’t really come out and punish her for avoiding punishment.
Also, time and place. Legion invasion. People somehow act as though Sylvie’s attempts to enslave Eyir was more of a risk to the success of battling the Legion than Genn’s attempts to sever the head off the Horde right after they lost their last leader. The guy could have crippled one of the two world powers for a personal grudge during that crisis, and little else.
Not to mention, the Alliance and Horde were operating under a peace treaty at the time. So, Genn and Roger’s attempted assassination of the Horde’s new Warchief (bizarrely blaming her for Varian’s death, when she was not Warchief at the Broken Shore), not only should have broken any such treaty … but be considered an Act of War. Which, it wasn’t … for some reason.
And she still did nothing to explain herself to genn afterwards. The crux is, she invaded and destroyed gilneas, drove its people out, and killed it’ prince. Why she did it is irrelevent. And then she choose not to make ammends after garrosh was outed, despite having every opportunity. You can’t excuse her not trying to fix a problem she created, and knew still existed. And if she believed she had done nothing wrong that doubly justifies genn actions. It was Sylvanas actions and lack therof that caused the stormheim incident to happen. It was her choice to act as she did.
From what I read, Sylvanas’s schtick was the worgen was pretty comical-sounding and over the top of “I’m going to take control of the worgen and rule the woooorld!!!” I don’t think there’s any good way to spin that in a sensible manner. And even if she did try to explain herself, I feel like it’d be stupid for anyone to believe or reconcile with her.
The time to do this would’ve been at the end of the war that kicked off with the Gilneas invasion after Garrosh was deposed and a new Warchief took his place. For whatever reason Varian didn’t want to negotiate any sort of amends or war reparations and walked out.
Very dramatic. Terrible diplomacy. Pretty standard Blizzard writing.
After peace was established though? Genn no longer has justification for going after her because the result of doing that should be war.
Because starting a new war causes misery for everyone. Not just for Sylvanas. A new war doesn’t bring Sylvanas to justice, it damns thousands of innocent people to death over something that was legally resolved with the last peace treaty.
It is important to remember that we’re dealing with nations, not people. You can’t just up and punish the leader of a foreign nation without starting a war.
Even so, she could have tried to lie. Say that Garrosh forced her to invade Gilneas and use the blight. Say that the RAS would clear the blight so that the Gilneans could go home. Instead she decided to do absolutely nothing to fix a problem she knew would come back to bite her. And that is why Genn’s actionw were justified. Sylvanas choose not to do anything, and that is on her.
No one is arguing that he and Roger’s didn’t have motive to attack her, the argument is if he had justification to attack her right then. During a full on Legion Invasion, with little knowledge on what she was actually doing, and right after the Horde had just lost its previous Warchief. Which … no.
Frankly, this event alone and Anduin’s lack of resposne to it should have been considered a declaration of war by the Alliance, and more than justifies the WoT (though nothing can justify Teldrassil). Add in Anduin’s response to the Gathering and the attack on the Bilgewater in Silithus … and the Horde should have had plenty of ammunition to believe the Alliance was planning to attack them. Because … they kind of allready where, its just none of it was allowed to count.
Garrosh actually did force her to invade Gilneas, if I recall correctly. He was doing it specifically to get the forsaken killed off just because he didn’t like them. It’s why the whole thing about establishing a port is routinely mocked whenever the topic comes up, because the land was supposedly god-awful for it until the Cataclysm even happened.
The real pragmatic thing would have been Sylvanas trying to strike an alliance with them the same way she did with the blood elves, but that wouldn’t have been conducive to sticking the race in the alliance so
Why do you think Sylvanas was justified in doing nothing to fix her own mess? She created it, and then she ignored it. You can’t pretend that the attack in stormheim didn’t have ample cause. A few years doesn’t matter in the slightest, when one party doesn’t try to make ammends, when they absolutely should have been.
This is completely irrelevant. The Horde and the Alliance war that took place during Cata has officially ended by the time Legion occurs. If Genn commits an act of war by attacking Sylvanas in Stormheim, it is an official act of war started by an Alliance leader during a time of official, legal peace. Literally nothing Sylvanas did in Gilneas is allowed to be brought up in reference to Stormheim: the Alliance forfeited that right when they agreed to end Cata/MoP war with apparently no conditions.
It’s time to let this go. This is not a good bridge to die on.
Honestly I wouldn’t be surprised. At this point, trying to get a bead on a consistent narrative for Sylvanas is like trying to read a Magic 8-Ball inside a tornado.
And im fine with it being a declaration of war. It simply happens to be a justified act of war, Since Sylvanas had done absolutely nothing to make up for her actions. There is such a thing as a just war, and it would definitely be in this case.
