Ahh … speak of another Alliance player who revels in Alliance Moral Absolutism. One who is weirdly fixated on Blight, despite the fact that its a relatively quick death when compared to the Void, Shadow, Fire, Ice, Arcane, Fel, Light, Poison, Beast… murders we commit on a day to day basis.
You think that Orc Malf buried alive in vines would have preferred a few moments of Blight, or the slow suffocation and strangulation he received from Nature Magic? Ahh, I suppose it comes in a prettier package, so its gotta be a less horrific way to go than Blight right?
While that’s true, the intention was not to use it on the living, but to use it to combat the Scourge. While I severely doubt Sylvanas would care if people got caught in the crossfire? I don’t think she or the Horde can be blamed for a splinter facti-…
Okay, you know, I would blame Sylvanas for that, because she continued to allow Varimathras in the Undercity, which allowed him to turn the RAS into his own faction that attacked both. But I wouldn’t say it’s anything to go to war over. That’s a traitorous faction breaking off and killing Horde and Alliance alike.
Varian was wrong to declare war on the Horde for it, but Sylvanas’ arrogance is definitely at fault.
As for human experimentation? I’m not sure that’s really public knowledge. They’d find out eventually, but…
So are half a dozen other types of magic in this setting? Truly, what people do in this world to eachother makes what amounts to the equivalent of mustard gas look tame by comparison. Blight if nothing else is a very quick death. its efficient, and clearly is meant to kill those exposed to it as fast as possible. That is a whole lot more than I can say for most magics of this world when they’re used to harm others.
I just think Axis style experiments are wrong on human beings.
And that’s the hill I die on. If you think its ok for the Horde to do human experiments…whatever…but it does show you don’t have the moral high ground.
Aethas should have never been allowed back into Dalaran even if the Sunreavers were because he spit on Dalaran’s neutrality.
Me saying ‘Agree to disagree’ is a massive understatement.
Unironically yes because ‘faith’ that the Horde being in Dalaran would do more total good then harm was the only justifiable reason for them to still be allowed in the city in the first place. A faith that was shattered at yet another betrayal. Remember, the Sunreaver’s were invited to rejoin Dalaran sometime after BC despite them now being part of the Horde, so they had to prove they were worthy of staying there.
Well they couldn’t be on good behaviour so had to be kicked out because they kept using Dalaran resources to help the Horde while still claiming to be a neutral city.
Taraujo wasn’t completely obliterated in a sneak attack so it’s a poor comparison.
Yes because Varian declaring war and the NE’s ceasing trade were both the Horde’s fault for actions they were responsible for(Also the fact the Undercity was using Humans as test subjects, that pretty much is grounds for war no matter which way you slice it)
The spying in Orgrimmar is because of Sylvanas killing innocents in the meeting between livingand Undead in Tirsifal and the Goblin miners being killed is because they attacked first. So ummm, what unprovoked Alliance acts?
The Alliance literally see this experimentation when they help the Horde invade Undercity, that is all the justification for war neccesary.
I don’t agree with it, but truly after the horrors we’ve seen of this game … Blight isn’t even on my radar for worst ways to go. Its the product of experiementation on live test subjects sure, but the end product is no less horrific than what people in this setting can do to eachother with any number of others magics. Many of which has also had experimentation instances.
Forsaken. Let’s not generalize. It’s still not really known if that’s public knowledge, and I’d argue that it most certainly is not.
The area is guarded, and until the WotlK campaign, we had no exposure to the Blight experimentation. (Except for… 2 or 3 quests, I think.)
And yeah. It’s evil. The Forsaken and Horde really only held an alliance of convenience and weren’t super buddy-buddy with one another. Even the Forsaken starting narration suggests that they’d break off almost immediately.
Okay, that part I would agree with 100%. However, the first act of war was unjustified… They found that AFTER the first act and declaration of war. Attacking the Undercity in the first place was not, at all, justified.
If they said Alliance spies found out about the human experimentation, then things would be different.
That’s like saying Genn was in the right for attacking Sylvanas in Stormheim. While I’ve always approved of that, it still was not the right thing to do at the time. The story, as it progresses, justifies it later down the line.
Jaina abuses Dalarans neutrality for years, often helping the alliance when she can, but that’s okay right? But how dare the horde do ANYTHING morally questionable
Im discussing that it was made through evil means…via experimentation. So that is what makes it different in a moral sense compared to other weapons.
The Forsaken were immoral for experimenting on people, and the rest of the Horde were wrong for not discovering/caring about what the Forsaken were doing.
Varian:“Thrall the Horde are evil as heck, kick them out of the Horde so we can invade them for their crimes”
Thrall:“No”
Varian:“Ok we’ll declare war against the whole Horde you big dummy”
What the hell are you talking about? The attack on Undercity was a JOINT EFFORT by the Horde and Alliance to kick out the rebels and defeat Varimathras. It was Seige of Orgrimmar before Seige of Orgrimmar was a thing.
Or do you honestly, honestly expect the Horde to not let the Alliance in to make sure the traitors died?
Aethas didn’t spit on Dalaran’s neutrality. A infaction of his reavers did without his knowledge, and he only caught them at the act just as they were escaping. He was then forced to face the horrific prospect of either betraying Garrosh and the Horde, or betraying Jaina and Kirin Tor, and he made the mistake of believing Jaina would be more linient.
Of course you don’t agree. Despite your so called “moral ambiguity” you revel in moral absolutism. The BEs of Dalaran deserved to die, and Aethas deserved everything bad that happened to him. Jaina and Vareesa were absolutely justified in slaughtering innocents and killing their only means of escape.
Jaina was made aware that Garrosh intended to move on Theramore by Baine, who sent a letter ahead warning her to get her people out. She chose to half-ignore this warning and instead spent more time trying to reinforce her position. Which is exactly what Garrosh wanted her to do. It was in no way a sneak attack.
Varian punished the Horde for an event that cost the lives of 4000 Horde, alongside the 5000 that the Alliance lost. That the Horde also attacked UC in response following that event. The Alliance also never knew about the test subjects at the time as far as I’m aware, and “Starving Innocents” is always a great move.
Spying is fine. Filling a capital so full of agents that it makes it impossible for average citizens to ignore them, to send the deliberate message “that the Alliance is Always Watching” is a very differrent sort of thing. Especially in response to what was NOT an act of aggression against the Alliance. Calia as Alliance themed as she was was not Alliance, and it was simply Sylvanas reasserting control over her Bulwark.
No she doesn’t. The only thing I can possibly think of you referring to is the Kiron Tor helping strengthen Theramore’s defences against a Horde attack because being neutral means they don’t help either side on the offensive, not allowing mindless slaughter against innocents from a faction clearly in the wrong.
After that, the only time Jaina uses Dalaran’s resources to help the Alliance is AFTER Aetha’s betrayal, which is when Dalaran’s neutrality was murdered.
Aetha’s had no idea a small portion of his sunreavers were going to steal the Divine Bell for the Horde. I would bring up Jaina and Varessa murdering innocent blood elves for the actions of a few, but you’ll justify that too because you can’t take the alliance blinders off for one moment.
Was the first Undercity siege really a joint attack? I thought for the alliance, it was just an attack of opportunity and the horde just happened to be trying to take it back from the front gates, not that they ever planned on working together to liberate it.
I do not recall this conversation at all. I remember “Quick, go to Orgrimmar and report what happened”
Sylvanas: So, I got kicked out
Jaina: WTF THRALL?
Thrall: That wasn’t us, it was Sylvanas this time, thing’s are screwed up.
I don’t recall any dialogue between Varian and Thrall demanding something be done about the Forsaken, he just saw the state of the Undercity after and decided that the Horde and Alliance could never co-exist. There wasn’t much else to it from what I do recall. No “Throw the Forsaken out” or anything like that.
My memory’s a bit fuzzy, but from what I remember, the Alliance went to re-take the Undercity as Alliance territory. Or, at least, Varian was. Wrathgate was so long ago, I can’t even remember. But, you are right, joint effort… that had different goals. It just so happened that both planned to kill Varimathras, but there was an extra step to the Alliance’s.
The way the narrative bends itself to make the alliance Morally Justified is what bothers a lot of people and prime example of what people call bad writing by the dev team.