Both of them continue to lend the strength and support of their people to the Horde during and after those atrocities, only bothering to whinge a little when something comes back to nagatively impact the Horde (like Baine fretting over Forsaken free will being violated). Their silence and inactivity brings its own degree of complicity.
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From Cailias:
"Yeah, I think the Horde can change. Sure, it can become better or more âgoodâ or altruistic or whatever generic good guy adjectives you wanna throw at it.
But should it? Should we really just throw away all the dark and all the grit for no other reason than to just be boring ol good guys who never do anything wrong?
Iâd say no. I never rolled Horde to play nice with the Alliance and get along and work together with them. I, and others, rolled Horde in Vanilla for a simple reason: Kill the Alliance, and bring glory to the Horde.
I donât care about the methods, I donât care about the why or the who or the what, as long as Iâm sticking a blade down some Alliance throats or burning them to ash with Fel Fire and stealing their souls, Iâm having fun.
Now, I know there are other players who didnât roll Horde for this reason. So obviously my preferences should not overtake the entirety of the Horde narrative. But what makes the people who apparently want to be peaceful or whatever the priority over me and others like me? What makes their reasons for playing the Horde so much more important than mine that they get to take over the entirety of the narrative and push what I find fun out completely?
Sure, we can have our Thralls and our Baines. But we should also get to keep our Sylvanases, our Gallywixes and Garroshes and Kromâgars and Blackhands and Magathas and on and on. Because after all, this is first and foremost a game. And games are meant to be fun, first and foremost, not about brow beating your players over the head again and again with pointless moral quandaries that never go anywhere or do anything save make me roll my eyes while the faction I love is gutted until nothing but Baine and the Footstools are what we have left."
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âŚthis is under Sylvanas âI will kill you and blight your people if you donât lick my bootsâ, right?
Is thatâŚrelevant, at all?
Yes, because they eventually rebel regardless. When their honor was trampled on. Not the genocide.
Weâre saying the last straw shouldâve been Teldrassil.
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Structured the same way, with the same people idolized in their culture and history, lead by an orc raised and educated by humans. Even in classic, Thrall had a clear inability to control the Horde. He failed to reel in the Warsong and Forsaken, who were attacking Night Elves in Ashenvale, a people who you say the Horde was dependent on for food. Despite saying his people will never again live in chains, he still allowed the Crimson Ring to operate in Horde territory, even the Horde Capital. We can assume it was all under the table, but Valeera was trade as a Slave from Ogrimmarâs own prisonâŚ
I think we can agree that Blizzard has not been very transparent with their story telling. I think a big part of that is first, to many cooks in one kitchen. A lot of writers with conflicting ideas in the same area. Second, the assumption of a stupid audience. WoW, while having some adult themes, was mostly marketed to children, probably young teens and preteens. Things like interaction politics and civics just wasnât on the radar of the writers because they didnât think it was in alignment with their target audience. Now those teens are adults who have been told their faction has been the true heroes of Azeroth, oppressed or victimized by the other. When in truth, the Horde is genocidal and military expansionist, while the Alliance is racist and politically expansionist/Colonial/Imperial. The big lie of Warcraft is the Alliance and Horde, as intuitions, are the bad guys. No one wants to believe it, so Blizzard is stuck with this lie.
Right.
Which means they had some disagreements, right?
Which they can voice now, in their new, shiny âCouncilâ system.
Before, if they said anything, their own culture and history and rules dictated that they apparently could just be killed.
Theyâre putting something into place where dissent doesnât start a civil war. Thatâs a sign of change.
Itâs from their officially licensed comic book.
Speaking of sources, youâve provided none for this requirement, because there are none for this requirement.
Yes. Thatâs exactly what Iâm saying. Thereâs absolutely not one guideline against it.
Grom Hellscream: kek
Nope. Night Elves destroyed the supply lines.
Towns are supply lines.
They destroyed the empires.
Civilians were in those empires.
Heâs only half right. That happened after the civilian murder and the Gurubashi and Amani Empires were fragmented.
They could of written it however they wanted. They chose not to, it is that simple. their story isnât always consistent, and the naming convention is meaningless in this game. The main outpost in Burning crusade was named after thrallâs cousin. Who hasnât been seen in the game since. I wouldnât think to hard on it bro.
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There a lot of things that are officially licensed but are not canon. I think its pretty mutually agreed upon that Meâdan isnât Canon⌠at least no one wants him to be.
No warcheif is going to accept MokâGora from someone of a lowly station.
Sorry your orc boi ainât a DemiGod. Not a fair comparison.
No, Towns are supplies. Supply lines are the paths between the Supply and the DemandâŚ
SHow me where elves commit Genocide. Show me where is says elves killed Troll innocents.
You can say that about literally any fictional narrative at all⌠If you just want to write things off like that, then what is the point of having any discussion about the narrative?
As someone who played from Vanilla to Wrath, then not again until Legion, it seemed like they wrecked the Horde for the purpose of making Garrosh a bossfight. Then did it again with Windrunner.
Guess in retrospect I should be thankful KaelâThas was just a bossfight and not a Horde character whoâd have to derail the faction first.
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Exactly how I feel âbout how Blizzard writes the Horde. They need to just make up their minds if weâre the Sith Empire or honorable anti-heroes. I can honestly do either one, but the flip-floppinâ is just stupid. It really killed my interest in the story.
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Sure they are, if theyâre challenged. Theyâre going to look weak and afraid if they wonât accept a challenge from a peon.
The issue is that a peon doesnât want to die.
Heâs a demigod killer. Canonically.
Each town allows the troops to supply.
But even if you want to lie and pretend that isnât true, the night elves killed them all the way to wherever Zandalar is, and that was that.
Not without demon blood to drink. Without demon blood, canonically he becomes a damsel in distress.
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I do not think so⌠A Warcheif would be fighting Mokâgora daily if such was the case. We have never seen chieftains or Warcheifs fight in Mokâgora unless it was someone of renown.
He and the Warband at his back lolâŚ
Youâre not clever, youâre not triggering me⌠I am not trying to trigger you, itâs just a statement of fact. Grom did not fight Cenarius on his own, he had significant help.
So saying that is a sure example of why he would beat Ogrim in a fight is just wrong.
Or the civilians fled before the armies go there? Youâre whole point is baseless unless you can show me, specifically, where Blizzard said the Kaldorei commit Genocide on the Trolls.
In fact, Azshara settled the conflict more diplomatically than she needed too. She could have just slaughtered ever troll along the way⌠Instead she negotiated terms with the Zandalari.
The Kaldorei won a war⌠that is not evidence of Genocide.
People keep forgetting that without drinking the demon blood, they were getting checked left and right by the night elves.
And not, like, mega-powered night elves.
Just the âget the hell out of our forestâ night elves.
âŚI miss them.
I think during the interview after Terror of Darkshore was announced, the Devs even said most of the Hordeâs experience has been against Night Elf Civilians and Militia. Not even military.
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That is what I am saying, they could of names the location whatever and done whatever and they choose to do this. The had full control, letâs be honest they arenât the best at consistencies and often contradict themselves and retcon lore.
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Well thatâs sort of the point, when there isnât a cohesive narrative what discussion is there? Thereâs a particular reason why this forum get so much less attention than it did even a couple years ago. Thereâs no consistent narrative so it makes discussing the narrative a joke. We are not discussing character motives and lore theorycrafting we specifically try to figure out what the Blizzard writing team is thinking so we can make some sense out of what is being shown to us because there is no immersion left for us to believe anything as true to the story.
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What backlash?
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Nup.
Cause weâre the Horde. Blizzards automatic choice for throwing a spanner into the works whenever we need some bloody conflict or cause to start butchering one another.
You may not hear from us for awhile during SLs atleast until crazy Tyrande makes her move. Cause something tells me the Banshee Queens death wonât be enough and even if it isnât what another war crime for the Horde?
Alliance canât stop us.