So basically you wanna ninja loot again.
No.
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Think you’ve got your hood on a bit too tight…
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No.
I played classic, it was fun. I dont want to play it again.
I want retail to bring back player agency and the positive experiences ML creates.
I also want PL to remain so that folks who dont enjoy ML can have fun too and play the game the way they want.
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Now i kind of want to see mythic+ with ML and how many forum complaints we would see.
Make it happen Bliz!
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Personal loot solved more than ninja looting, but everyone here knows that already. Some would rather not talk about the kind of tyranny that comes with master looter, but it remains in focus nonetheless.
Relying on someone’s good nature to get something that you feel like you worked for is a recipe for disaster.
In the best-case scenario, you might be informed that you would indeed not be getting the thing this run because it was going to Francine, but if you didn’t come along you wouldn’t get it ever.
Guilds and even PUGs got to institute their own unpaid intern program. Just find someone who wasn’t using it? Who would be so foolish as to allow personal loot when there was master loot to be had?
Then you have the non-best-case scenarios stretching from shady to so malfeasant that we are where we are right now.
Even in this very thread, we have people launching into personal attacks and pronouncing deep offense at the very idea that someone might disagree with them.
Imagine this person in possession of your chances for an item. That seems like a math more applicable than everyone holding hands and singing in unison.
In truth, everyone had years of master loot, and we blew it. We couldn’t handle it or ourselves and we turned it into a problem that the devs had to solve. And that solution is personal loot.
If anything, this thread and some of its ugly sentiments illustrates exactly why we cannot have nice things, or Master Loot, as if any of us truly needed reminding.
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So long as it was 100% guild required… I’d still be fine with this.
Back during Uldir we were progging on M Fetid and our Arcane mage desperately needed Balefire’s from WCM. He was running every WCM he could get his hands on. I had a WCM and we ran it… The trinket dropped for me. I already had 2 385 trinkets and the balefire was 380… But… I couldn’t trade it!!! Why? It was an upgrade for my resto spec…
We were both soooo salty…
Even more impressively… he had the exact same problem occur again with a different guildy… Fortunately, third time was a charm and he finally got it.
I wish they would create a Mythic server type… so only Mythic raiders could play there… so I can stop hearing about an aspect of the game I have never and will never take part in…
mostly due to the comments on the forums from both sides, seething over not being able to get in, not being able to get better loot than everyone else, not getting everything their way.
The fact that you view it this way just solidifies that you’re a PL player… and that’s perfectly fine! I want PL to exist for those who view guilds that way. All the power to you! Just let those of us who don’t see this as an unpaid internship let us enjoy the game our way.
I’m guessing this is aimed at me. I’m not offended at someone else disagreeing with me or even someone preferring PL. I’m offended that you seem to think that people like me are incapable of defending our own self worth… That we in a way… require Blizzard to hold our hands as we cross the street. Your help (and blizzards) was not required and was not requested.
Edit: I’d like to add that I’m not sitting over here clutching my pearls… I’m simply stating that you may want to think a bit more about what your words are implying. Sure it sounds good to “help” the little guy… but the way you’re doing it is by indicating that the little guy can’t even help himself. Which is patently false. You help the little guy by explaining his options and showing him how to better succeed… Not by simply removing every possible chance of a negative experience.
Wrong. You couldn’t handle it and those you played with couldn’t handle it. Don’t speak for everyone.
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With player agency comes positive and negative experiences. In Legion if you didnt want to partake in a situation where someone else had control over your loot you had options.
You could:
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Form your own guild, and be the one making the decisions
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Join a DKP guild, where there was no loot council
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Join a PL guild
At some point we have to look at individuals and hold them responsible.
My gaming experience shouldnt be worse because some people are stupid and join toxic guilds or trial for 6 months.
This is the same line of thinking that led to pvp vendors being removed.
“Little Billy might buy the wrong item or not be able to find the vendor so lets just remove it”
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I see the words “player agency” tossed around a lot here.
I find myself generally very pro-agency, pro-options, where game-play is involved. Its one of my major gripes this lack of options in the game.
However, I feel like the term, in this case, is more obfuscating than illuminating.
In terms of Master Loot, player agency involves being able to remove agency from others.
One person has agency at the expense of everyone else.
If I were to offer you the choice between a system wherein one person has agency and can control the loot decisions of everyone else or a system wherein everyone had equal agency related to their loot, which one would seem fairer? Which one would you make you most uneasy?
So, while we are talking about options and player agency, lets have a clear view of what we are discussing.
You may be okay with surrendering your loot privileges to someone else, but historically it has not worked out very well.
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That’s why we had something called Group loot that locked your need option to your selected loot specialization.
PL always tradeable solves that!
With ML it probably wouldnt have dropped at all because the end of dungeon loot table just tripled, with tons of it becoming unequipable by anyone in the party.
It worked out fine for me.
Im not an officer. I have no interest in leading a guild. Too much effort for me.
I dont want control of the loot and dont want to be bothered in the decision making of who it goes to.
I do, however, want my player agency back.
Having the power to choose a guild that i entrust to handle loot fairly, and properly compensate me for the effort i put in to a given tier is player agency, your personal incredulity aside.
If thats not your thing, no big deal. Nobody here is arguing to nuke PL guilds. Choosing a loot system that fits your personal preference is player agency. Choose PL if you prefer.
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See that is where you could not be more wrong. I have been an online gamer for over 30 years and it was not until WoW, and the new type of player it attracted via the Warcraft IP, that I have seen any major issues with the various forms of looting that have been used in many games.
Even raiding in Everquest, with 60 - 80 players in the zone, I never saw the amount of whining that I have seen in WoW with 10 if someone did not win a drop.
I miss mature MMORPG gamer’s.
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Loot the cause of and solution to all of WoW’s drama.
Doesn’t take much time on these boards to figure out why that is. The overwhelming sense of entitlement is palpable. “I exist therefor I deserve”
Long gone are the days those old days
Yeah nobody complains about anything else other than loot 
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Player agency is dead, and it’s never coming back. You will stay on the rails that have been predetermined for you, without deviation.
The quote was originally from Homer Simpson - “Beer the cause of and solution to all of lifes problems”.
My twist was meant to be a light hearted neutral statement to make both side’s chuckle and you took it and became a jerk with it. Thanks for that.
It seems that the ML crowd is filled with your type who will attack even the most neutral statements. And this is why you will never have your nice things back. Not because your wrong…it’s because of how you act.
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Now that’s an interesting thought. If we assume it is just as you say it (and I really have no reason not to) then I wonder why that is?
Entitlement? Gimme gimme mentality? That seems like a lazy analysis leaving us no more enlightened than the initial thought.
If people are suddenly more likely to winge about loot, whereas they were not before, why? What has changed? What is the shift in the zeitgeist that causes this? What is going on?
What do you think?
The other aspect with blanket ML is it doesnt jive with level scaled dungeons.
If you have a level 22 and level 55 player in a dungeon with ML what item level/stats should the drop be?