Why the Horde losing the war secured their future. A Treatise on Horde Political theory

Hey all, I’m going to apologize in advance for the stream of consciousness this is my first time posting here.

But this thread is going to be a deep dive on horde political theory, and I will be presenting my case that due to the actions of both Garrosh and Sylvanas; The Horde’s loss in the forth war will be the spring board that launches them to be the preeminent power on the planet.

First I’m going to touch in on what the Horde is.

The Horde first and foremost is a centrally governed Empire. Even though in its council form the chief executive’s power is diminished, the Horde still represents a political union unlike the purely military alliance. This allows for the creation and integration of infrastructure without the need for redundancy as well as a more efficient allocation of resources. This will come into play later.

As the Horde was established in the resource poor central Kalmindor, they faced a similar problem to many rising powers in our world. That being they are right up against an established great power in the night elves and don’t exactly have a whole lot of room to grow. Especially as they great power resides on the most resource rich area of the continent. The horde other problem is that their territory is comprised mainly of wide open flat terrain with few to no natural defenses. Compounding this is that Theramore is Blue-water port with a straight shot into the indefensible horde heartland.

On top of all of this, the Horde at the time was a new nation. There was no established infrastructure, no vehicle for rapid troop or supply movement throughout the empire, and also what I imagine to be a weak economy. Compared to the untouched kingdom of stormwind, the industrial powerhouse of Khazmodan and the millennia old Kaldorei, The horde was an infant on a barren rock surrounded on all sides with a dagger to the throat. The only light of hope they had is that the night elves are an empire on the decline.

In order for the Horde to succeed, they need to accomplish 3 things

  1. Industrialize and build infrastructure
  1. establish hegemony in Kalmindor and secure the resources from northern Kalimdor
  2. neutralize theramore and Northwatch To secure the horde heartland
    This is the only way forward as a ascending power, and would explain why horde foreign policy has remained relatively consistent from Thralls horde to Sylvanas.

Garrosh

With the Horde Expedition north over, the cataclysm brought great change to the horde as added the bilgewater to their ranks and began the industrialization process; the outbreak of war showed exactly the hordes natural disadvantage. The horde and the Night elves began a brutal meatgrinder in ashenvale and stonetalon while stormwind and theramore flooded troops into the barrens to relieve pressure on the north. This contained virtually all the major fighting to the Horde’s home territory, leaving the EK alliance nations untouched as the horde just didn’t have the manpower fighting a two front war, to strike at the eastern kingdoms beyond Lordearon which was an forsaken offensive done virtually alone.

This changed with the bombing of Theramore, which while horrific, was the most game changing moment for the horde. By using the manabomb Garrosh wiped out the alliances only bluewater port on the eastern shore of the continent but the irradiation ensuring that it cannot be rebuild, leaving northwatch the only alliance holding south of ashenvale, but it much more easily containable and just doesn’t have the capacity to facilitate invasion removing the proverbial dagger in the neck.

This in my opinion also led to the relatively favorable post war treaty following the SoO the night elves despite winning the war ceded both Azara and stonetalon to the Horde. They claim it was a gesture of goodwill to fix the resource issue, but no nation gives up territory for the sake of it not after winning. In my opinion it was because they knew they had no way of forcing them out. The night elves took losses in the war and from the cataclysm, and because of their recently lost immortality they don’t exactly have a new generation ready to go or on the way… they couldn’t afford to risk prolonging the war over land they had no hope of holding on to now that the alliance no longer has a way of opening a southern front, or even getting troops to the battlefield without sailing all the way to darkshore.

Sylvanas

If Garrosh showed that the night could bleed sylvanas put them the out to pasture with the war of thorns Not only did she run through the whole of their Lands but the burning of Teldraisill while evil and monstrous was the fatal wound the future of the Night elves as a great power on Azeroth. The Genocide wipe out a massive chunk of the population, one that is not every easily replaced. While they won in darkshore, they aren’t immortal anymore and sooner or later the army of the black moon will need to go back to normal life, and when a generation passes they just wont have the numbers anymore to be the threat they once were.

This isn’t all that she did; she brought in the most most game changing allies as well. Both, the Maghar and Suramar. More specifically the Iron Horde engineers and Occuleth. The Iron horde tech is exactly what the horde needs to secure and industrialize their land and Telemancy can provide a stable portal network connecting and integrating the horde even further and as an empire this would help bring the unity the horde needs. With that said these two gave the Horde their only win condition in this war, Survive.

With a mortal wound dealt to the Night elves and the alliance failing their decapitation strike in lorderaon (leaving the forsaken holdings mostly in tact) the Horde needed to only survive the war as a political entity. In a generation they will have replenished the troops and have finally developed and industrialized the country.

With her up and leaving before another civil war sparing the horde from weakening itself further and leading to an armistice, the horde survives and by holding on to much of the forsaken land prevent the alliance from threatening Quel’thalas. Thus preventing a mortal wound themselves and buying the time they need.

Thanks to Sylvanas the Horde might have lost the war but they achieved the grand objective and set themselves up for a Horde Century.

TL;DR: The by destroying Theramore and mortally crippling the night elves they succesfully eliminated all threats to continued growth as a nation, and by bringing in Suramar and the AU Maghar they have the know how to industrialize and connect the empire in ways they never could before. Once the Tree burned they only needed to survive the war not win.

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Nah pal. The cost for all of these “reformation” is losing slowly the unique culture of the Horde races by the hands of the writers and putting them more into human standars which defeats the point of both factions and fantasy elements if everyone is equal with the only difference being the color of the T-shirt they’re wearing

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orc smash!

I’m sure this would all sound interesting in an faux-history book a thousand in-game years in the future, but it still felt like crap to experience in a setting that was largely just a mix of exploration and hero fantasy before this. If this war was about resources (it wasn’t), then the war ended with the alliance still in control of them. If it was the industrialization, then the war wasn’t needed because the faction already had the goblin tech that spawned the iron horde, and the faction already recruited Suramar.

Also maybe I missed it, but I’m still not sure why either of the wars were necessary over resources when the night elves were openly trading and supplying the horde with what they needed on the condition that they didn’t act like nimrods, along with Theramore supposedly on friendly terms with them before Cataclysm (faction mechanics aside).

I don’t see any reason to try to read a deeper meaning behind Tyrande ceding Azshara to the horde other than it just being weirdly out of the goodness of her heart. Even if they’re no longer immortal, I don’t see why they couldn’t bounce back just as quickly as the horde; if anything, I’d think they should be able to recover faster because of their canonical infinite resource generation.

In the end, the factions just seem like they’re going back to where they were before, except now one of them has that lovely little Teldrassil Genocide [10 Achievement Points] floating over their heads. It feels like this expansion accomplished nothing but dragging everyone through the mud.

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Only…the Horde didn’t lose the war. Both sides mutually agreed that they didn’t want to continue fighting.

The Horde was not defeated in the final battle(in fact, Sylvanas technically won the Mok’gora, which was the only fighting that took place), and at no point did they surrender to the Alliance.

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Yea, the Horde mostly achieved their war goals. Their main goal that motivated them to start the war was to destroy the Night Elves as a potential threat and achieve peace with the Alliance on their own conditions - they did both of that.

You can say that many Horde players can’t be proud of their faction anymore which is true, but the NPCs seemed to be pretty proud and happy about their accomplishments especially in the war of thorns.
Additionally, the Horde also gained land and ressources in that war, possibly even an entire new zone they have wanted for ages.

Also, the Horde never lost the war. They only said that the Alliance won the 2 warfronts

It’s honestly quite a disgusting lesson to teach that commiting genocide against innocents makes you achieve peace…

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If you want to write a treatise on war strategy, it’s best you don’t use fabricated evidence:

Didn’t cede Stonetalon, didn’t cede Azshara, but allowed the use of its resources (backed up by night elf presence in Legion invasion event);
The night elves have also shown to be more than capable of fighting a war despite losing their immortality and even their civilian numbers; their recent victory in Darkshore evidence to that. They also haven’t lost their army, mostly untouched in the WoT.

What? Is there anything at all to back this up? They still have a huge number of civilians going all the way from SW to Goldshire, heck, their soldiers can retire and make babies.

Didn’t do much in the fourth war, and the Alliance has viable counters which your “treatise” ignores. If you want to write war strategy, it is best to not overlook a lot of details.

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Let’s be real…the horde lost as they’re in no position what so ever to barter a good deal, with the horde being split into rebel and loyalist.

It’s only by of course the good graces of Anduin and the story bending to his will that they don’t suffer.

No technically about it, Sylvanas destroyed Saurfang in the duel and then dipped before anyone else could challenge her.

The Horde might have destroyed Teldrassil but they have hardly removed the night elves as a threat to any expansion ideas they might have in the future when it comes to northern Kalimdor.

The Army of the Black Moon (all the black eyed night elves following Tyrande) are still very active. There were enough not-black-eye nelves to contribute an army outside the gates of Org at the end of the 4th war.

The Night Elves took a beating, but they are by no means done.

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Depend. The forces allied with Sylvanas definately wanted to continue the war but ended up stopping because their leader abandoned them. The Alliance’s goal was to stop the Horde and push them back out of night elven land, which they did. Bonus that it now holds Arathi.

They did not surrender, but they accomplished none of their objectives. The Alliance goal was to stop Sylvanas, and it managed to do so.

Except the Alliance pushed them back again out of night elven lands. We know the night elves have returned to Nodrassil and everything so far points to them retaken most of their lands. Nor has the Alliance seceded any of its holding and we know the Southern Barrens are still controled partially by the Alliance. And now with Arathi under Alliance control it has a straight shot to Silvermoon and possibly crushing any major Horde forces left if a world war happened again.

Let’s be real: The story as conveyed to us is the reunification of the former loyalists and the Horde. People still loyal to the banshee appear to be the minority.

Be that as it may, the entire war proves pointless to the Horde because they are back to square one.

I’m not sure what that has to do with the point that I made? I’ve got no real opinion about OP’s post other than objectively, factually, and canonically the Horde outnumbers the Alliance to such a huge margin that even when paired with Saurfang’s rebels, Alleria wanted to throw in the towel.

That is a huge difference.

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Well for one we know Alleria is not omnipotent. In fact, she is proved wrong, we didnt even need the forces of the Horde or Alliance(at least not its army) to win against N’zoth. Wrathion even mentions it. Second, she didnt want to thrown in the towel, not neccesarily because they would lose but because the lost of life would still make it a Pyrrhic Victory once they end up dealing with N’zoth.

Honestly, I just wish it was just July already so we can all finally get a better grip of where we all in terms of strength of the factions.

We also know that Blizzard was trying to convey the near impossibility of the situation, as both Anduin and Saurfang, who have spies, have the exact same conversation in a previous cutscene. In The Big Cutscene, they reiterate that this is the only chance they have. If they lose, they’re done.

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They do that everytime, every bad guy has to be this near impossible enemy we have no chance of defeating but we always defeat it. But lets be honest here, even if the Alliance/rebels fell there was no way Sylvanas could continue her war. She had no fleet and aside from Ogrimmar proper every Horde city had already turned against her. Not to mention the night elven army(at least the majority of them under Tyrande) did not participate.

The problem with losing in Ogrimmar had more to do with N’zoth then Sylvanas herself.

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That’s true. It’s entirely possible that Blizzard will just not care about what they wrote last.

But until they demonstrably do, it is undeniably canon.

Well it isnt canon anymore especially considering Baine seems to think they barely have the resources to even help the Vulpera. We already know the Alliance has a fleet again which is being used to chase Sylvanas. And, ultimately the lands the Alliance do control have always been more bountiful then the Horde thus making its recovery that much easier.

False comparison.
The Horde has resources to defend itself. The Vulpera flat out admit the reason that the Horde doesn’t want to help them is because the Horde believes that they bring nothing to the table. Baine even tells them that the Vulpera are always welcome in the city and that’s before you go help the Vulpera join the Horde.

The Horde is trying to settle their lands. Probably deal with the loss of Lordaeron.

Do we? Azshara destroyed it.

Like I said, Blizzard may change their mind in the future. Until they do, the Alliance are outnumbered by the Horde to a large degree.

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I recall a quest specifically stating Jaina sending her fleet to chase Sylvanas, and this was after she fleed Ogrimmar, hell Tandred and the ship we built for Jaina was not destroyed.

Baine Bloodhoof says: Meeting the needs of our current allies has stretched the Horde thin. It would be unwise for us to take your people under our wing.

Even if they could defend themselves it looks the Horde is barely holding on.