Why the AOE cap is a bad thing

hey…I know that guy! lol
He always like to pull you kicking and screaming thru his storyline that makes absolutely no logical sense whatsoever.

I turned him loose to GM our Middle Earth campaign years ago.
His idea of fun was to have Sauron enter and destroy Rivendell :roll_eyes:
I had to roll it back next session by saying it was a dream our entire party had, some sort of prophetic thing, just to keep my players playing.

Junkyard is the worst possible dungeon to balance around; it is widely considered the joke of this tier. You can die 20x and as long as you get shockbots and your damage is good otherwise, it’s timeable.

Pull size and chain pulling are 2 different things, the speed at which you have to move and pull is the point. I regularly pull 2-3 pulls in AD, TD, shrine, siege(although spotters solve any aoe cap problem here), ML, temple has several big multipulls, WCM it’s not uncommon to pull the entire hallway and then the entire room, several places in FH etc.

It’s very common for a pull to be beyond 5 mobs, aka a cap, and if there’s a cap blizz will have to rework things around the cap to allow for the time difference.

Like I said, I see both sides of the argument, but to pretend uncapped isn’t a huge favoring factor right now is just being ignorant; DH, mage, rogue, hunter < all fully uncapped with no DPS change to ST from their uncapped AOE, and they are on the top of every single high clear currently. The reason is because of their uncapped AOE and the sheer pull size/speed/chain requirement of high keys.

My guild has people in the MDI and several of the 5k/top rated guys, they admit they can’t bring several classes due to pull size.

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I just don’t see how an “AOE cap” would even work in practice:

  • on Bolstering weeks, what if your artificial “5-cap” hits a bunch of yellow mobs, thus Bolstering the tougher elites in the pack? (could be fatal in higher keys)
  • the entire nature of Mythic+ (beating a timer), is not really conducive to pulling only 1 mob/1 pack at a time… will they be increasing M+ timers across the board to offset the new, slower 1-pack-at-a-time pulls? :thinking:
  • are MDI caliber players really going to be forced to pull 1 pack at a time like Violet Hold? That’s not entertaining at all, it actually sounds so boring to watch Zzzzz :sleeping:
  • in random bgs, what if your “5-cap” hits random Hunter/Warlock/Death Knight pets or summoned minions instead of enemy players? This is especially relevant to the 40-man bgs, where there’s tons of non-player minion/pet NPCs running around at any given time… imagine doing 0 damage to enemy players, as your “5-cap” limit gets soaked by a bunch of random pets/minions :roll_eyes:

Most players obviously prefer the “pull the whole room and AOE” pulls, obviously it’s FUN or else so many players wouldn’t be doing it (where possible, anyways).

As a the owner of a Guardian Druid, Prot Warrior, and Prot Paladin, the most positive compliments given to me by pugs have been when I’ve done the giant “giga pulls” with 15+ mobs. That’s what pugs like to see, judging by the praise that you get after said pulls.

The most negative comments I’ve gotten while tanking pugs, the accusations of being slow or bad, have come when I “only” pull 1 pack at a time. Obviously a lot of pugs “look down” on such a slow pull pattern and have a negative opinion towards it.

This cap would suck on tanks :-1:


I guess what I don’t understand is why they don’t. Fix them instead of caping everyone else. They see operating with a chainsaw instead of a scalpel.

Not all class/specs are affected by this change. Some it will be business as usual.

The point is more that some specs already mostly ignore this. This change targets specific specs and abilities. For specs already doing well with little or no cleave, this will simply prop them up.

I agree that DH shouldn’t be able to pull entire dungeons. That is the problem blizzard is mostly trying to fix.

I don’t disagree that’s an option, they’re choosing the opposite direction.

The bottom line is 1 of 2 changes needed to happen; a cap and rework of the thought process of pulls in M+ progression, or completely uncapping all classes AOE.

They’ve chosen the former, which hopefully means the pulls will cap at 5 but require much more consistent decision making/CC usage etc while either extending timers(hopefully NOT), or making less overall density within the dungeons while making it more skill based than speed based.

There is nothing worse than the current M+ makeup requiring you to absolutely speed chain pull, playing perfectly for 25mins, and having 1 or 2 bad wipes due to the requirement being these intense, nutty chain pulls costing you the timer. Imagine if it was more skill based, and less speed based; more nuanced so to speak, and it rewarded that playstyle.

I enjoy M+, but I see the argument for the other side. The bottom line is this is a fundamentals disagreement, some people love the OMG GOGOPEWPEW 1.2mil UHDK DPS, and some people hate that to compete they need to reroll at high enough keys or be disinvited. The other issue is that removing the cap to say…fury warrior (I’ll stay in my lane) would make fury far and away one of the most required classes, we do insanely high consistent damage with no downtime, we have self heals, higher HP pools, plate armor and our “downfall” is the AOE cap.

I don’t disagree with you, I do see what they’re going for though. And I don’t disagree with it either.

Edit; Adrot does make a good point, in the sense of the 5 cap numbers will have to be reworked either way. So really this is just the direction they’ve chosen, it won’t necessarily be bad, and whether agreed upon or not, we’ll just have to wait and see.

I think we can all agree we’ll never all find the exact same fundamentals perfect and enjoyable.

I don’t think it’s bad, I think it’s a good idea and long time coming.

I’m a frost mage, so by default at least 50% of the time my frozen orb will fly away never to be seen again. AOE cap makes no difference to me in the end :stuck_out_tongue:

But really, the aoe cap is stupid, and I wholeheartedly agree with OP’s post.

Pulling through walls is a bug caused by the design. I think the risk vs reward density allows for, especially when there are patrols that a “good” tank can decide to take route A over B because of the timing of patrols.

I like that in some dungeons space is a resource, there is a skill check involved (especially on sanguine) where if you are in very tight corners, making sure the group doesn’t stray into surrounding mobs is important.

Some mobs do have substantially more health and buff the surrounding mobs, general rule the bigger the mob model the more health relative to his peers he will have. I am thinking of underrot and the mounted mobs in seige, the ettins in freehold too.

I think some dungeons have enough, I like abilities that are a puzzle that needs to be solved by the group, again thinking underrot and the second boss, having fixate/ae silence, having that ~10 second incapacitate, the slime puddles in the room near the boss.
Really ae damage IS the problem here, if you can quickly blow them up you don’t need to counter them. I would prefer more totem-esque abilities that just flat out ignore non single targeted spells, rather than blunting the ae toolboxes.

I am against the unpruning, I don’t want abilities just to have them on the bar and never be used… e.g arms/fury getting shieldblock/shieldslam… yet being unable to change to a 1h/shield in M+ nor having any of the passive benefit buried in tank specs when using 1h/shield.
Also the arms race problem where giving too many stuns\cc means giving too many stun immunity/removals.

We went the entire expansion with this not being addressed… When many of these packs aren’t required for %… why even have them? Especially when you’re NORMAL rotation has a chance to pull them.

that’s fine. the majority don’t need to be made that way.

are you just looking to disagree for the sake of disagreeing?

Mob health diversity compared to Legion is low.

yep, you’re just disagreeing to disagree…

I’m glad you think they have enough. The point here is to limit large pulls by increasing complexity.

says enough about the rest of your opinions. Many abilities that were removed were considered core, if not class/spec defining. Many specs lost a lot of abilities while mage/rogue lost none.

We need more… not less.

I agree, they need to do better, I was pointing out that it is clearly a bug, rotation pulling things should be an issue for x-y axis and is a good consideration/skill when in tight spaces to be aware of. Pulling on z axis or pulling through walls should never happen and Devs need to do better.

I am against having excess trash in dungeons. I don’t like cheesy skips or stealth gameplay but I accept I am in the minority on that.

I am trying to point out, what you are asking for is already in game, either its not widely deployed or its a tuning issue. I was pointing out examples of where it is in game and what I like about it.

Does it? I disagree so I am wrong?

Can you give me examples or rationalise your position? I used the example of unpruning warriors where it makes little to no sense to do it specifically because M+ prohibits you from using that part of the kit.
Like help me out here… why do hunters need arcane shot when they have cobra shot? Why do warriors need slam when they are already GCD locked?

Unprune where it makes sense not blindly and without purpose give back every ability, if you are saying mages/rogues have too much utility/control because they have not been pruned and thus other classes should be brought to their level, thats valid but you could much easily prune mages/rogues and get back some gameplay balance.
For example the reason we have horrify and fear effects is that we had too many fear breaks in the game, thus locks/priests needed a way to escape/push back. So we have fear and “unbreakable fear” in the game now.

One the one hand, it can be fun. On the other hand, I really miss playing my affliction lock.

I’m ambivalent about the change. I’ll have to see how it feels.

I didn’t read the whole thread. Has anyone considered alts/new players having to get through the existing mob heavy dungeons on their way to 50 with their new lack of ability to deal with them?



These devs will never allow that. They have the play the way we want you to, or gtfo attitude lol.

“Fun detected? Fun removed”

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To heck with the new stuff… why are they going to limit AOE in places like Icecrown or Bastion of Twilight where there are 20+ mobs in a pull.

Some stupid decision that hasn’t been fully thought out because they’re banking on competitive dungeons. Old content is going to take double the time.

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While I agree they needed to do something I disagree with most of this. People didn’t like the slower style dungeon when they added operation mechagon. They made the trash hit hard to cc etc could be useful. People complained so much that it got hot fixed. It didn’t even make it to the next reset.

I actually like it as a variety but by capping aoe they have taken out the option for variety. A dungeon like Kings rest being harder smaller pulls I really enjoy. I don’t want it to be all there than be though which capping aoe dictates. I like that I can do both styles atm depending on the dungeon I’m doing. I can do kr with small hard hitting packs or freehold where I can go bigger.
The change will just make everything the King’s rest type which I don’t think is good.

I also disagree and think that executing things faster is skillful. Less time to make decisions and more accuracy required etc.

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