I honestly believe thats what they “learned” from classic. The people that “unsub” because of RPG elements are too hard to retain for an MMORPG. The game has to sacrifice too much of what it is to please people who dont really like the genre.
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Ofc the initial goal was to further add distinguishing features between for example MM and SV. Making one spec into a melee-spec was an easy way(on paper) to achieve that goal.
There was however no need to do that in order for there to be a clear distinction between the two. All they had to do was double down on the intended fantasies tied to each individual spec.
Every one of those examples makes sense. There’s no framework for a class without a weapon at all in WoW, particularly since having one is pretty important in terms of stat weighting. It would actually make more RP sense to allow for such a thing, though, so this isn’t helping your case in having a melee weapon in the Hunter class.
I need to be super clear with you: your ideas are utterly unwelcome. Most of the class was quite happy to see melee weapons gone despite the opinions of a couple of naive roleplayers in this thread. Stop trying to get us to come to a compromise on this. You’re not going to get our support for anything beyond a cosmetic-only melee weapon.
Don’t even begin to try to talk down to others like this. People are interested in WoW being immersive. What people have an issue with is when the roleplay/gameplay balance gets skewed in favour of roleplaying to the point where the gameplay suffers; ESPECIALLY when the “fantasy” gain (whatever the hell that means or how it can be measured) is questionable at best. WoW didn’t stop being an RPG because Hunters stopped using consumable ammo and melee stat sticks. Did you take issue with the fact that you could summon a mount from anywhere right from the start instead of having to go to a stable or did you correctly recognise that they made it that way because the alternative, while being more “realistic”, would be terrible for the game?
And I really don’t feel you have a good grasp of what RPG means, especially when you apparently think Breath of the Wild, a game with vastly more simplistic combat and gearing than WoW, is somehow more of an RPG. WoW is an expansive adventure game and is no less of an RPG than it used to be. You haven’t even gone into detail about what criteria you think it’s failing to meet and are instead sticking to vague, broad statements about how it’s an “action game” like that means anything valuable.
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Except your mount was a whistle in your bags. Good troll post though.
I mean, I play this game because it feels like an RPG to me. So… not really sure where you’re getting this from.
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This is what you like to call “moving the goalpost”.
You said weapons are good when you use them, bad if you don’t. That getting weapon upgrades is rewarding. But not melee weapons because you dont actually use them. You said “all those weapons are actually in use” and when I pointed out that you were wrong you moved the goalpost.
Its ok to have a different perspective. Debate is about arguing your side and if you don’t have a side then there is no point debating. You think getting rid of melee weapons was good. I think it was bad. Does the whole community agree with you? Too bad we’re not holding a vote. And unlike democracy, debate doesnt always depend on popular opinion. When you cite popular opinion that’s a fallacy. When you attack you opponent thats a fallacy. Things you lean heavily on. Which is a shame because when you stick to facts and your strength of knowledge you actually manage to make me see things your way.
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The game has sacrificed a lot of RPG flavors for ease and quality of life. In many cases it’s been nice, though in some it’s kind of added up over time to that sentiment – that the game development focuses more on combat simulation and story telling than on roleplaying and adventure.
If you get into the grit, we probably have different attributes that define the genre. There are many RPG elements that I can point to which make it “RPG-like” (again to me), but the trend or growth direction has been away from some of those elements for expedience in the MOBA areas (and this is true for PvP and PvE, as you can frame instances content as a battle node of a MOBA except the opponent is scripted encounters and mechanics).
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I guess my point is, there are tons of games that are defined as RPGs. D&D is a table top RPG. Final Fantasy and Pokémon are turn bases fantasy games (excluding the MMO for FF of course which is also a RPG), Octopath Traveler, The Elder Scrolls, Fire Emblem, etc. There are tons of different RPGs with different ideas of what makes a good RPG.
There is still a story, I am involved with my character, there is still leveling and power growth over time with better gear / items, etc. WoW for all intents and purposes is a RPG.
Is it a satisfying one for everyone? No, of course not. And the game has evolved in many ways that did remove some older ideas of what is needed to make a game a RPG. But honestly, I find that view to be narrow in scope and shuts out others who have a different idea of what a RPG is, especially without some of the old tedious busy work that used to be involved. Which, we still have too though things aren’t nearly as grindy as they once were.
To put simply, I think saying the game is just a battle simulator / moba doesn’t do it justice. Do I think they could do more to bring out some of the more immersive RPG elements? Absolutely. Character customization, more meaningful choices within the story (though this can be harder to implement due to the nature of it being a MMO), etc. Like, I think we shouldn’t be faction locked at all any more unless we choose to be, and I think any race should be able to be any class. Lore wise, we the player characters, are special and unique. I’d love if Blizz actually let us be that way.
To me, the game is still a RPG. Is it the best one out there? No, but I also don’t think it necessarily needs to be either. It still brings enough RPG elements for me while meeting the criteria to make for a fun MMO without feeling like a giant slog.
Edit: Wanted to add because I thought it relevant to the point of discussion. As I stated above, I don’t think WoW is a perfect or the best RPG by any means. One of the things that has frustrated me within the past few years was the outright removal of old SV.
I don’t want melee to be removed. But I also want an updated RSV back. I used to play all 3 specs for various gameplay reasons but I always really liked playing what I viewed as an Arcane Archer from a thematic perspective with RSV. I miss playing an archer who infused their shots with elemental magic to rip foes apart from a distance, often with explosive results! It was a blast (pardon my puns :P).
But a distinct thematic experience was removed to make room for MSV. I think there is room within the hunter class to fill both fantasies, and I really want what was lost returned as a 4th spec. A lot of that is for various gameplay reasons and what I view as long term health of the game. And a lot of that is for thematic reasons. It’s a character archetype that I can play in many other RPGs. I’d love it back for WoW.
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I completely agree with both of you. Though I think Bepples is right that MSV won’t and cant really ever be competetive in the hunter class, if they were to go 4th spec, I would just swap back and forth between msv and rsv. I would be fine.
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Yeah, that’s where I make the concession of being RPG-like, but also wonder what elements of storytelling or immersion are missing from a game, like Halo, that stop it from being considered a traditional RPG instead of an FPS? It ends up being a very broad brush.
And I have to say Shadowlands put a lot of things in place to help “walk back” the line, so to speak. It hasn’t been all bad. I’m vocal in my generalization, but some of the specifics even you mention lead to my feeling of “what direction has this gone?”
And I think this may be at the heart of my feeling. I mained the same character all the way from Vanilla to Cataclysm. I felt like it was my character, but they continued to change and break the individual choices I had prior made for “ease” (or whatever).
It stopped feeling like “MY character” and more like “the character I play”. It wasn’t just that break in identifying with my main either.
Talent trees were removed. Mounts were made collections. Battle Pets and Arenas became the future of cutting edge content. Transmogs changed the face of gearing to be “however you want to look” (maybe not a bad thing with the later gear sets not looking the greatest). A lot of small QoL changes, many good, some very frustrating (removal of light-on-the-feet elemental archer – I loved this too) just add up into an overall sentiment of “Do I believe this is still able to be classified as a role-playing game?”
To that, my answer is not quite anymore.
It’s more of a MOBA with RPG-like qualities.
But that doesn’t mean it stays there.
Edit: the “wavy line” between the two being the permanence of your character between the instances-based nodes. In a word, I think there ought to be more WORLD in World of Warcraft.
I mean… there are two Final Fantasy MMORPGs. FFXI and FFXIV.
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