Why Surv gets no love?

[Bepples-barthilas]

@Azagorod-emerald-dream

Someone else saying there’s survival in a BG, and you outright refuse it or try to make it boost some sort of point that makes no sense.

I’m not even denying that SV shows up in BGs or that he saw 3 SVs in one BG. I saw 2 SV in one BG once. Key word “once”. The point is that they aren’t common in casual battlegrounds despite your insistence that they are not only common but more common than other Hunter specs.

@Azagorod-emerald-dream

Fun fact, SV is more played than BM in any high RBG… BM is more popular on low tier RBG for point def.

Oh OK so basically nothing about what I said is different and you have to go to an even more niche area of the game to find where Survival is being played.

Helpful reminder that you’re the one saying Survival is more popular among casual players.

@Azagorod-emerald-dream

Community is ignorant on its utility, but its not the reason. Its unknown, its not shown in MDI and it isnt the top 3 dps on DMG meter… so the community outright just refuse it. Yet they bring good utility, do good dmg.

It’s not a player perception issue. Survival is legitimately a terrible choice for all PvE content. It does a lot less damage than BM in all scenarios (and yes it is A LOT LESS) and it is restricted to melee to get its full damage potential. On the utility side of things BM and MM have mostly the same utility but BM also has Spirit Beasts with a pocket heal and their Aspect of the Beast talent gives them extra health. The only thing SV has on BM is the shorter interrupt CD and that completely fails to outweigh everything BM has over SV.

The top players aren’t stupid or uninformed. They know what each spec has to offer. These people were bringing SV to mythic Gul’Dan back in Nighthold because they knew it was good for that fight. The reason they aren’t using SV now is because they know it’s a bad choice.

I’m not sure how you think denying SV’s weaknesses instead of confronting them helps the spec.

@Kaldara-durotan

For those who are saying “sv is terrible for pvp”

I’m pretty sure 0 people are actually saying this.

[Photonfervor-ravencrest (Photonfervor)]

@Ridge-hyjal

Now if you’re a pro-MSV player and are defending your spec

For me it’s not a matter of pro melee or pro ranged. I enjoy playing melee, ranged, healer, and tank. I actually find myself playing more at ranged (PVP) for the sake of staying alive, often only Harpooning in to secure killing blows when the opportunity presents itself because so many other specs have so much more durability.

But it’s ridiculous to tell melee that they’re going to lose a significant amount of dmg when they’re not in melee range, and to tell casters that they’re going to lose a significant amount damage when they aren’t able to stand and cast, but then have these other guys that they will never lose any output regardless of circumstances.

Yes, Blizz discussed being fine with BM because of pet melee requirement, pathing issues, and less than stellar AI. No, I absolutely will not sit through hours upon hours of Ion talking about irrelevant content in hopes of finding it. Yes, I understand the perspective of not accepting this claim without linking the proof. We’re just going to have to agree to disagree and move on.

More than anything I would just like to see people get over the fact that this change has happened. It has literally been years since this change to digital representations of fictional characters that we play in a video game has taken place. I have seen people cope with the untimely loss of flesh and blood family members better than some of these players still bitterly ranting about RSV in every single Survival thread.

[Dawnspirit-wyrmrest-accord]

@Photonfervor-ravencrest

More than anything I would just like to see people get over the fact that this change has happened. It has literally been years since this change to digital representations of fictional characters that we play in a video game has taken place.

I have an idea, let’s change ret paladins to be basically frost mages and see how quickly the ret paladin community gets over it. Or Prot paladins to be basically Brewmaster monks.

People don’t have to get over something just because you want them to.

[Photonfervor-ravencrest (Photonfervor)]

@Dawnspirit-wyrmrest-accord

I have an idea, let’s change ret paladins to be basically frost mages and see how quickly the ret paladin community gets over it. Or Prot paladins to be basically Brewmaster monks.

I’m guessing you haven’t played a Paladin much throughout the game’s lifespan. Go play one on Classic and then on Retail.

[Xaedys-thrall (Xaedys)]

@Photonfervor-ravencrest

Yes, Blizz discussed being fine with BM because of pet melee requirement, pathing issues, and less than stellar AI. No, I absolutely will not sit through hours upon hours of Ion talking about irrelevant content in hopes of finding it. Yes, I understand the perspective of not accepting this claim without linking the proof. We’re just going to have to agree to disagree and move on.

Even if we take that at face value, it doesn’t really apply to reality. Pathing issues are relatively rare, and AI and travel time are largely irrelevant when 2 of the 3 abilities in your primary rotation instantly charge the pet to the target from up to 40yd away.

Basically, it’s hella disingenuous to try to argue that the primary reason RSV was removed was the mobility. MM and BM both, at the time, also had perfect mobility. BM retained it, you argue because of largely irrelevant pet limitations, and MM mostly kept it, spending about a fifth of their rotation rooted. They could easily have applied a similar mechanism to SV and been done with it.

So no, the mobility is not a valid reason for completely deleting RSV. They, or you, maybe try to use it to justify that action, but it wasn’t why they did it. They did it because they couldn’t be arsed to come up with an effective differentiation between MM and SV, despite the fact that the two already played quite differently (and even more differently given the pending completely and total rework of MM).

@Photonfervor-ravencrest

More than anything I would just like to see people get over the fact that this change has happened.

Yes, the change has happened, but it’s also been extremely divisive and generally unpopular. Statistically, it’s beyond debate that the population of hunters speced into SV dropped dramatically when they swapped it to melee, and has never come close to recovering.

Removing a much-enjoyed spec isn’t the type of thing people are just going to shrug and say “oh well” about. Blizzard is making this game for customers. If they want to ignore feedback from their customer base, that’s their prerogative as a business, but their poor pattern of choices over the last few expansions is clearly making itself known in the continued bleeding of subs.

Frankly, more than anything, I’d like to see the tiny but bitter minority that actually enjoys MSV to get over the absolute dumpsterfire collection of random lost-and-found mechanics, thrown together without even the glimmer of a cohesive theme or concept, that currently holds the name “Survival”.

[Photonfervor-ravencrest (Photonfervor)]

@Xaedys-thrall

Yes, the change has happened, but it’s also been extremely divisive and generally unpopular. Statistically, it’s beyond debate that the population of hunters speced into SV dropped dramatically when they swapped it to melee, and has never come close to recovering.

The same is true of MM with the Legion changes and remains true in BFA despite still being ranged.

@Xaedys-thrall

Removing a much-enjoyed spec isn’t the type of thing people are just going to shrug and say “oh well” about. Blizzard is making this game for customers .

Survival wasn’t removed. It’s still there. It just plays much differently now, not unlike Shadow Priest, Demo and Affl Lock, all 3 specs of Paladin, Enhancement Shaman, etc. As I said before. It’s not just Survival. There are few, if any specs, that would be recognizable in their current playstyles to players who had only ever played the original versions.

[Boridin-stormrage]

Ahh, forum troll I see. So it’s the communities fault that msrv isn’t more popular. Right?

In your vaunted wisdom(over the entire hunter community, heck, the entire wow community) what true utility does survival bring to a raid, or mythic dungeons, that other classes dont have? Why would I bring a survival hunter over a demon hunter?

[Photonfervor-ravencrest (Photonfervor)]

@Xaedys-thrall

Frankly, more than anything, I’d like to see the tiny but bitter minority that actually enjoys MSV to get over the absolute dumpsterfire collection of random lost-and-found mechanics, thrown together without even the glimmer of a cohesive theme or concept, that currently holds the name “Survival”.

Wait, we’re bitter because we get to play a spec we enjoy and need to get over that fact? Come on, even you have to laugh at how little sense that paragraph makes.

As for a cohesive theme, I would prefer the spec to get to a more primal state. I’ve advocated in the past that Wildfire Bomb be swapped out with something more natural, ranging from dragon glands, to bee hives, to pheramones that attract wild beasts to assault your target, which is likely how we wound up with Wildfire Infusion.

But to look at it now, I think I would say the theme of Survival is the progression of human resourcefulness and ingenuity. You have the primitive weapon strike, the use of a thrown weapon, an animal companion, creation of traps, use of small-scale explosives, and a projectile weapon to deliver harvested poison.

It’s like the spec has taken key elements from major steps in our evolution and combined them into a codified combat system.

[Azagorod-emerald-dream]

@Bepples-barthilas

It’s not a player perception issue. Survival is legitimately a terrible choice for all PvE content. It does a lot less damage than BM in all scenarios (and yes it is A LOT LESS ) and it is restricted to melee to get its full damage potential. On the utility side of things BM and MM have mostly the same utility but BM also has Spirit Beasts with a pocket heal and their Aspect of the Beast talent gives them extra health. The only thing SV has on BM is the shorter interrupt CD and that completely fails to outweigh everything BM has over SV.

Short version, you agree SV is good. Its only a dmg tuning issue atm. SV has good utility and that having a short CD on interrupt is more valuable than a long one. Thus why melee is more preferred. They have the same utility as MM and BM (obviously… same class) so yes, they still have good utilities compared to other class and bring in things that other dont.

@Bepples-barthilas

The top players aren’t stupid or uninformed. They know what each spec has to offer.

They know to pic the spec that does highest dmg to race, clear higher unbalanced content (M+ 20 and higher) and to be at the top of dps meter.

[Xaedys-thrall (Xaedys)]

@Photonfervor-ravencrest

The same is true of MM with the Legion changes and remains true in BFA despite still being ranged.

Yep, and people are constantly asking for MM changes too, and yet you just want people to shut up about SV? Ya, no gunna happen.

@Photonfervor-ravencrest

Survival wasn’t removed. It’s still there.

It isn’t still there. There’s still a spec named Survival, but it bears as much similarity to RSV as MM’s Rapid Fire bears to vanilla spell with the same name.

@Photonfervor-ravencrest

It just plays much differently now, not unlike Shadow Priest, Demo and Affl Lock, all 3 specs of Paladin, Enhancement Shaman, etc.

Really? You’re going to try to argue that a spec changing raid roles is on the same level as spec redesigns?

In any case, “deleted” is a term very often used for many of those specs as well, incidentally, especially Cata/MoP/WoD Demo, Aff, and Shadow. And they’re more or less bringing back WoD-era Enhancement in SL, because the Legion incarnation is an absolute abomination. So there’s precedent for simply edit-undoing the Legion reworks.

@Photonfervor-ravencrest

Wait, we’re bitter because we get to play a spec we enjoy and need to get over that fact? Come on, even you have to laugh at how little sense that paragraph makes.

You’re bitter that so much of the hunter community hates MSV and wants RSV back.

@Photonfervor-ravencrest

As for a cohesive theme, I would prefer the spec to get to a more primal state. I’ve advocated in the past that Wildfire Bomb be swapped out with something more natural, ranging from dragon glands, to bee hives, to pheramones that attract wild beasts to assault your target, which is likely how we wound up with Wildfire Infusion.

Right, but MSV literally hasn’t had a cohesive theme since it was created. Right now, the primary rotation is a spear strike, a grenade, a poisoned crossbow shot, and a pet command. W T F

It has a DoT, but that DoT straight up fails to function in the face of the talent (and prior to that, baseline) that has been relatively central to SV since it was created, Mongoose Bite. Baseline, none of the abilities have any synergy whatsoever, you require talents to add any synergy at all.

Face it, the spec is literally just a dumping ground. Blizzard reached into the hat of ideas-they-couldn’t-find-room-for-elsewhere, grabbed a handful of slips of paper, and called it a new spec. It’s complete garbage, and has been since day one. Heck, even Ion has openly acknowledged the MSV was never intended to be a popular spec.

[Photonfervor-ravencrest (Photonfervor)]

@Xaedys-thrall

Really? You’re going to try to argue that a spec changing raid roles is on the same level as spec redesigns?

Holy Paladin was damn near turned into a melee dps. At most you hear people looking for a new mastery that doesn’t feel punishing when mechanics don’t allow you to stack on your allies.

Regardless, unless you’re an amputee trying to play with one hand, I fail to see how going from range to melee is some great travesty.

@Xaedys-thrall

And they’re more or less bringing back WoD-era Enhancement in SL, because the Legion incarnation is an absolute abomination. So there’s precedent for simply edit-undoing the Legion reworks.

Outlaw is looking more and more like Combat, so you’re certainly right here. It’s early to tell as Hunters seem to have only been given the briefest of glances by the devs so far, but it’s looking like they’re happy with Survival as is.

@Xaedys-thrall

You’re bitter that so much of the hunter community hates MSV and wants RSV back.

I see. We’re bitter that you’re bitter. Way to bounce that one back…

There’s nothing wrong with wanting something back. There’s quite a bit in this game, ranging across quite a few specs and classes, that I would like to see returned. But there’s a world of difference between wanting something back and occasionally having a discussion about it and the relentless beating of the proverbial dead horse by the handful of disgruntled players who can’t help but derail every thread that even mentions Survival.

@Xaedys-thrall

Baseline, none of the abilities have any synergy whatsoever, you require talents to add any synergy at all.

This is not unique to Survival. Modern class design in general seems to be start out incredibly simple at the core and give players the option to add complexity and interaction through talents and borrowed power systems. But for the record, Carve reduces the cd on Wildfire Bomb for each target struck as a baseline interaction.

@Xaedys-thrall

MSV literally hasn’t had a cohesive theme since it was created. Right now, the primary rotation is a spear strike, a grenade, a poisoned crossbow shot, and a pet command. W T F

I disagree. As I just mentioned…

@Photonfervor-ravencrest

But to look at it now, I think I would say the theme of Survival is the progression of human resourcefulness and ingenuity. You have the primitive weapon strike, the use of a thrown weapon, an animal companion, creation of traps, use of small-scale explosives, and a projectile weapon to deliver harvested poison.

It’s like the spec has taken key elements from major steps in our evolution and combined them into a codified combat system.

[Ridge-hyjal]

@Photonfervor-ravencrest

Modern class design in general seems to be start out incredibly simple at the core and give players the option to add complexity and interaction through talents and borrowed power systems.

Now that sure is the truth. I’d be a lot more into MSV if it followed old class design conventions but of course that isn’t possible since it was unfortunately born in a post-WoD era.

I think that fact it was born in the modern class design era is why the spec is so damn simple and disliked. If it wasn’t for Wildfire Infusion I’d argue SV is simpler than BM.

I really hope Blizzard moves away from this class design philosophy. I’d rather have classes that are complex at their core with talents serving to empower those base mechanics. Imagine how fun MSV could’ve been if they still followed that type of class design? …At the very least they could’ve let Serpent Sting DoT damage reset the CD of Wildfire Bomb.

Also borrowed powers suck. I hope to god they stop doing it after SL.

[Dawnspirit-wyrmrest-accord]

@Photonfervor-ravencrest

the handful of disgruntled players who can’t help but derail every thread that even mentions Survival.

Yay, this easily disproven argument. Please just stop with this nonsense right here. There are plenty of threads talking about improving the current start of survival that have no mention of ranged survival in the whole thread. Just because it mentions survival doesn’t make all the pro-RSV people descend upon it.

Like this one. Which you’ve posted in. Yet you want to accuse pro-RSV people of derailing every MSV thread…

Survival suggestions mega thread

I never felt survival was the same with out the artifact ability. There was something satisfying about building up to a big channel at the end of a mongoose bite window. It also made planning ahead important and was a nice contrast to my main spec. Now I’m normally mm so if more seasoned survival Hunter’s disagree then I would yield to them.

[Bepples-barthilas]

Notice how many times I bring up the fact they could have easily added a movement penalty to ranged SV at any point, such as the one the spec used to have, and he just ignores it every single time?

[Taigertraps-darkspear]

Notice how much complaining there is about mm because they added a small movement penalty?

[Ghøstwalker-stormrage]

Personally, I don’t complain about Aimed Shot being immobile. I complain about the fact that other than a 20 second CD, our only mobile dps option is locked to an immobile ability. That’s not a “small” movement penalty, as you called it. It’s just straight bad design.

I also don’t believe adding a movement penalty would be necessary to RSV. There are ways to make mobile specs more difficult.

[Taigertraps-darkspear]

If it was up to me, I would add a mandatory ability that needs to be casted without moving to bm too.
Ranged should not have full freedom of movement.

[Bepples-barthilas]

Which do you think would be more upsetting to ranged SV Hunters circa. early 2015: the prospect of regaining a movement penalty, or the prospect of losing the spec entirely?

Do you agree with Photonfervor that mobility was why they made SV melee?

[Taigertraps-darkspear]

@Bepples-barthilas

Do you agree with Photonfervor that mobility was why they made SV melee?

I honestly don’t care… What was done, was done. No point in crying about it as I am not a small child anymore

[Malcvi-rexxar]

Blizzard reached into the hat of ideas-they-couldn’t-find-room-for-elsewhere, grabbed a handful of slips of paper, and called it a new spec.

This part I don’t quite agree with. I do agree that they didn’t have an actual planned spec and kind of threw things together. However, this gives the impression that they randomly came up with melee Surv. I cannot agree with that.

The complete trashing and redesign of SV outside of the hunter class itself doesn’t fit a random guess. If they were trying to randomly throw ideas together to differentiate the spec they would still have ranged SV just with a bunch of quirky non-interactions. No I think this was someones baby. Some designer had this idea for melee hunter and pitched it as differentiation in order to get it to pass. Unfortunately the designer didn’t bother putting in the effort to actually make it a cohesive theme, instead we have the jumble that is SV today.