Ehh have you seen the forsaken? They are literal cannibals. Anyway Illidan literally did the same thing with his mages to Save Azeroth from the Legion. The San’Layn did the same thing to keep the mission going. Warlocks do the same thing to there demons for power and aoe dps.
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do they kill horde members then they eat then? no, they don’t
Lollidan and his legion portrait are not in the horde.
sure, the good old end justify da means, no, im tired of this obnoxious storyline in the horde, we don’t need that.
demons also, are not members of the horde.
So you’re making the claim they weren’t controlled by the Lich King?
points at Forsaken, Void Elves, and Death Knights
When he was pushed into a corner and they were all being slaughtered, he didn’t do it for funsies.
And? Death Knights aren’t just a mechanic that doesn’t exist in Lore. They’re there and and they to constantly inflict suffering to keep from losing their sanity.
It didnt actually.
… how can you claim that that there’s more than what we’ve seen but then say the opposite in regards to the San’layn when no Blizzard official has stated as such?
This is assuming they’re innately evil.
They’re not kicking out the Forsaken and Death Knights are they?
One San’layn did that. One. Do we need to point out all the other evil orcs and trolls and tauren and goblins?
You seem to be operating under the assumption that San’layn are Chaotic stupid Evil beasts, when they’re not.
That is not what a state sponsored religion is and also from what ive seen Goblins view it as more business with contracts than anything spiritual.
It is not. It is a family of outcasts.
That was a chunk of the horde’s forming but it is not the entirety of it.
Vampire elves don’t “fit thematically” the faction made up of monster races that are traditionally seen as evil?
And again with the San’layn are unthinking murderous beasts assumptions.
They have done no such thing.
They would need to state they have an inherently evil nature before they could “retcon” it.
The Orignal Horde, Thrall’s Horde, Garrosh’s Horde, Vol’jin’s Horde, or Sylvanas’ Horde?
Also points at Forsaken and Death Knights and Warlocks
No, thats an example of him doing something evil in desperation, it is not a race wide damnation. No more than Garrosh was for the Orcs or Zul was for the Zandalari or Magatha for the Tauren.
And yet without the Lich King’s control you claim without evidence that San’layn would also not do the same.
That doesnt make them not exist.
Death Knights need to inflict suffering to keep their sanity and plenty of Warlock spells revolve around draining life and using souls.
You mean like how the Forsaken lived in Undercity away from the rest of the Horde till it was destroyed?
The Forsaken would disagree on that. And Death Knights are not “more for gameplay”, they exist very thoroughly in lore, same as the other classes.
You said most, i gave my dissent.
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Receipts please
If they’re dead we do. We kinda have to to keep from breaking down.
Illidari Blood Elves say hi.
Warlocks say hi.
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Hush you…you shall not quash my dreams, even if they be futile ones, of one day playing my ultra-emo elf vampire >_> Alliance got werewolves, give Horde their vampires ![:stuck_out_tongue:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/stuck_out_tongue.png?v=6" ":stuck_out_tongue:")
(and blood death knights don’t count…they’re just well-preserved zombies anyway)
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When you think about it, a Human is simply an unripe zombie.
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If I see your corpse In a bg you best believe I will eat your corspe : ) (have you played a forsaken yes they can eat horde too)
Any horde demonhunter had the choice to sacrifice another demon hunter to keep the mission going. ( I did) They reappear as a ghost.
Literally parrallel to demonhunters and warlocks and death knights. Heck San’layn are in the deathknight camp.
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after the Lich kind dead they are free, yet they are still evil
still waiting to see good sanlayn, when there are good forsaken and good void elves WAY more stable than vampire elves.
try to give arguments instead of pointing at something.
ah sure,poor dreven, run was not a option, kill his own soldiers yes, die like a man out of question too.
sure this fit the sylvanus horde, but not the normal horde, and soon she leave, we will have no room for edgelords like this
a clas, by default work different than a race, pretty simple;
like i said, dks are individuals living in secret, and doing some job for the factions, they don’t live in society, they do their own thing in the shadows AND NOT against horde members.
If DKS with that portray are barely tolerated, the vampire elves would never be a thing.
they think they are not trustworthy. they indeed were not, they fail to do their job and are all dead, a big fail.
because we do have official things
this is about orcs
https://web.archive.org/web/20190131154345/https://twitter.com/Moorgard/status/1052293589806399488
and the sanlayn were said to be wiped out by the end of nortrend campaign in the quests, and the only left were resurrected and killed in icecrown.
and with the evidence show they are, yet to see something imply otherwise.
no because, since you like to ignore, not all forsakens are crazy, and dks are not a race but a class.
sure the sylvanas loyalists will be kicked out.
yeah, their leader, someone who represent then.
point out what good things other blood princes did, everything so far just paint then as npcs villains
Nop, but lawful evil, even lawful is evil.
They show to not be trustworthy and a danger overall.
never said a thing about sponsored religion.
i said the horde is a tribal faction with shamanism standarts/morals/idealism, never said shamanism is the only true religion in the horde, cause other races do not pratice and they joined anyway.
But again, the Marjory of the horde have this mindset and since its clashing against the pragmatic Sylvanas mindset, with evil vampire elves would be worse.
most of then are tribal , and again, your concept of Family, to allow some evil vampires to join is distorted.
and again, never say it was
traditionally seen as evil is not actually being evil
And again, this just one of the big problems, we still ahve to deal with another damn elf joining.
the “vampire” theme can, like i said wait, so other races who fit more join first, or just make other race the vampires.
they are thinking murderous beasts, what is worse.
after nortrend campaign they were wipe out.
they already did, and nothing shows otherwise.
the normal horde, cause they would enter in just one of those cited.
already showed how different they are.
He even said he dislike to suck undeads cause he need to suck more to give a good sustain, showing he already did in the past.
He is screwed in the head, like all vampire elves were showed before him.
still waiting how and why, no evidence of this, when there is evidence showing otherwise.
after nortrend were are they? why they didn’t search for help? why only now with sylvanas doing her evil crap? the moment she need loyal subjects to do her evil things? what a coincidence.
And again, forsaken to not have the vampire curse to screw then in the head.
make sense then to not exist in the horde as a race.
none of those things are done with horde soldiers.
as a class is obvious in a minor scale comapred to an entire race who will need to feed.
there was forsaken in orgrimmar and other races in undercity prior, they fight together in many fronts, they were constantly in contact on a degree.
not the same.
if you take you dk and cast army of undead in front of a bunch of people in any city nothing will happen to you
thats the gameplay thing, your character to not matter that much, other DKS, like warlocks, barely show up apart from your character.
And it is most of then, from 11 playable races 8 practice and follow shamanism, most of then the most populous races, they are with no doubt marjory of the horde.
and this was not the question, do forskaen kill horde member then feed on then? the answer is no
also, they would not kill then in front of other horde members.
illidari blood elves are not illidan.
why? warlocks are part, not demons
i detect a problem of pointing at things and saying hi for no reason, at all.
now you learn that gameplay =/= lore
in the time they were not horde, yet with the consent of the other.
and again,s till missing the point of how a class is different than a race in the narrative and in the lore.
San’Layn would be the death knights as a race. They are part of ICC. They are featured heavily in the blood hall. There are other blood magics in the world they can study and utilize. They are shown to be different classes. And the evilness sets them apart from other races.
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Then you can play a blood elf dk and it will be a sanlayn already, no need for allied race.
case closed.
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I mained a dk. You can say that for the forsaken. I have a blood elf dk. Would be nice to play the other classes tho : P. There is no need for orcs btw.
The only evil one we’ve seen was Dreven, what about the ones involved in the Death Knight Campaign?
Oh me too, I can’t wait to see more ^w^
They are an argument, races and classes stereotyped and assumed insane and evil having plenty of members that are not.
Do you have the “Die like a man” checklist? Curious for the rundown on that.
And which Horde is that? Forsaken have been Horde since day 1, and Garrosh and Sylvanas have sadly left their mark, the Horde is as much them as it was Thrall.
What does that have to do with anything?
They’re not living in secret, everyone knows where they hang and are regularly called upon.
You know the Alliance have Death Knights too right? And both them and Horde Death knights operate out of the same place.
That’s an assumption you are having.
It’s hinted that they did accomplish what they were set out to do, which was a distraction from something else. And they also fought against the Alliance until the end, which you wanted them to do, but then you also call them untrustworthy for sticking to their agreement, so which is it?
No they were not, provide proof of otherwise like you did so for the orcs.
We have only seen two to my knowledge outside of Arthas’ control. Dreven was working for Sylvanas and a Blood Princess was involved in the second Dalaran prison riot. Though there are some I believe involved in the Death Knight campaign.
I’m not the ignoring anything, you’re the one making the claim that all San’layn are innately crazy/evil.
You keep saying this like it means something.
Like Kael’thas, like Garrosh, like Sylvanas?
We haven’t yet because so far they have been kept as bosses. We haven’t seen all of the San’layn yet.
They stick to their agreements they were set with as Dreven shows and Lana’thel resurrects the fallen Blood Princes.
If you’re not saying its a state sponsored religion then why keep tying it to the government in this case?
I doubt that. Orcs and Tauren yes. But the Darkspear worship Bwonsamdi, and the Zandalari worship other Loa including him. Depends on the Goblin I’d say since they have Priests too. Then there’s Forsaken, Blood Elves, and Nightborne which don’t follow shamanism. Pandaren have their own thing.
They are not.
When the family already includes Forsaken, Warlocks, and Death Knights.
And if they are added as a Race or we have another area with them instead of reserving them just for Bosses we would see non evil ones.
This really drags all your complaints and concerns out from under you feet.
They fit perfectly, the Alliance already have Werewoofs.
Like what a lot of people steaotype as most Horde races.
1)Reciepts please.
- Dreven says hi.
Receipts please.
And which one is that?
You have not.
And? they have to feed just like Forsaken and Death Knights.
He’s a vampire. Feeding on blood is what they do. You’re just throwing out negatives with no basis.
“We haven’t seen any peaceful San’layn in war zones” isn’t really good evidence.
Good question that I hope they follow up on it.
This whole expansion has been about getting allies, what a coincidence that we get Highmountain Tauren, Nightborne, Mag’har, and Zandalari as well.
And more with saying their insane as a way to demonize them and trying to split them from other undead.
San’layn have to drink blood.
Forsaken have to eat people.
Death Knights have to cause suffering.
San’layn are no different than those other two.
No? We got Forsaken and Warlocks and Death Knights.
That’s a bold assumption you’re making, do you have any proof it’s never been done?
You mean like the Forsaken, the entire race of zombies that have to eat people to avoid breaking down?
Yes, the Horde can work with undead allies just fine.
? The Forsaken for the longest time tried to stay hidden from everything, especially their enemies.
And you can also sling pyroblast around as a Mage and not kill anyone, and summon demons as a Warlock, flip flopping on the lore and metagame mechanics isn’t really doing anything for you.
That’s an assumption you are making.
You’re saying this has never happened, you’re wrong.
They are his Demon Hunters.
Percentage yes, works with and regularly summons, yes. They’re whole thing is working with demons, and they’re still kept around.
You’re making a rather huge assumption that Forsaken have never eaten any Horde members.
Not to the extant that you’re making.
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There are only like 5 left right?
Far too few to ever make sense as its own entity.
They got more in northrend : ) They also were in Nazmir and making new San’layn. They probably also can be re-rezzed with a darkfallen orb. They are probably as tough to get rid of as a lich.
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and would be who? even lichs are there this don’t mean they are good.
you will just have to wait like, forever.
that not just stereotyped, its a real thing, showed and proved.
There are no good sanl’ayn like there are with other race examples.
??
like i said normal horde.
Anda gain, forsakens are not like sanl’ayn, the similiarities end when much less in common.
By example forsaken do not have a blood curse to compel to drink the blood f the living.
with have todo with everything, you can’t just say “vampire elves work because dk work they are the same herp derp” when they clearly are not;
Not everyone know,just people with power, its not something well seeing in the normal society.
when tyou first create your DK and walk into orgrimmar what happened? yeah
do you think the horde using warlocks and they living and doing their thing in cleft of shadow is something well know among people in orgrimmar? thy would freak out.
and it have nothing to do with my point, horde dks do not harm horde members
thats tacking basic logic
like all horde war campaign is a big failure, with bit hints of “we did something yay”.
like not kill his own soldiers for food, they also fight because they had no choice.
the dude almost try to boss over Rokhan, it was a moment of time for him try to do something and if you kill your ow soldiers you are not trustworthy.
yeah im not going to look for all the quests in the LK expansion for that, you can chek out the wiki.
all of then evil
i can show you good forsakens, can you do the same with san’layn? no
every portrait of sanlayn are evil villain npcs, end.
because it means.
yeah. they did represent then in a moment before they gonig evil, unlike sanlayn who ere evil from the start to the end.
all of then evill and raid boss, nothing more to say.
that die in icecrown.
because is a common thing and something overall followed, the races do ahve their morals based on that, and they will not throw into the trash just because people want to play even more edgy elves
Darkpears have shamanism as their thing, voodo, withc doctos, spirits, elements, everything else and loas.
goblins shamans bargain with elements, and respect then in a degree.
Aka, the minority of the horde, and blood elves and nightbornes are not rly into the undead mindset.
who is also have shamanism in their, who is a step to the monk arts.
orcs, taurens, trolls and a bit of goblins and pandarens is marjory compared to elves and undeads.
who again is totally different.
and by now they are just evil with no reason to change that.
still is a vallid point since most of the people just want another edgy elf.
this is not twilight, sorry.
the difference is the vampires elves ARE, showed many times.
like i said retcons.
obviously the evil horde, the retarded horde, aka sylvanas horde
you choosing to not understand, don’t mean i didn’t.
Death knights and undeads don’t need to feed, dks need to inflict pain, nto suck blood from then to live
thats why they don’t fit in the horde, simple as that, a race of evil being who need blood, its just a matter of time they start doing with horde members, people missing in the night, hah would be glorious.
it is because they are not peaceful, they are bloodthirsty mosnter, and they would need to retcon that.
i answer that, because they are evil.
no, thats different, sylvanas recruit some evil lackeys to do her evil thing.
they don’t, this is a straight up lie, they can eat normal food, mushrooms and corpses who don’t need to be from humanois, neither need to be from horde members.
not to horde members.
they literally are, your tentative to put then in the same bag is not working because they are different.
who is different, yet you somehow see then as the same.
is there a proof of then doing to horde members? no, just with alliance soldiers
Bold assumption is to think they will do to horde members and we by now having no data about it.
This is not how they work, you don’t know what you are talking about, thats why your comparison do not make sense.
normal, non evil or controlled undeads, in a minor scale, not evil ones.
isn’t rly doing anything for you, cause most of your “point to X” are just mechanic thing, not a lore thing
elaborate, you are trying to say tome that an almost extinct race, aka blood elves, the survivors undeads of undercity, and the survivors of suramar are marjory of the horde?or actually the other part o clearly have numbers and make the backbone of the horde armies? and population?
show then to me.
they are not him.
Demon to not make part of the horde they are slaves of the warlock will.
show some facts
Even if they did, its would be a minor isolated event that no one know about and would never brought up again, since they don’t need to do that, unlike the vampires who will need a constant flow.
Like i said, now they do not make any sense, they would need to retcon and build way too lore for this to work, and right now we don’t need, the horde don’t want or need, other races should join first before any other elf.
And?
An assumption on your part, they used them in Legion, they used them in BfA.
We have evidence of non-evil Forsaken, Death Knights, and Warlocks, we don’t have any examples shown of good San’layn because we’ve seen so few, but we haven’t had any statements to the effect that they are any indifferent than Forsaken or Death Knights.
You kept saying San’layn wouldn’t be let in because they were “untrustworthy” even though Dreven fought to the death to fulfill his mission rather than flee, but then say he should have rather than drained the troops, or “die like a man”, so I ask what “die like a man” checklist you have handy so we can go over it.
And which is that?
Not really.
Correct. We’re WORSE. We have to eat people to avoid breaking down and losing our minds, that’s much more severe than the San’layn’s thirst.
Uh they are though, Forsaken, Death Knights, and San’layn are all in the same cursed basket.
Then the same applies to San’layn and probably Forsaken.
And now they’re valued members of the Horde (and Alliance). So yeah, worked great.
… you mean the cave system in the middle of the city were the portal system was located?
Again, assumption on your part.
you don’t need basic logic to make things up.
This we can agree on more or less.
Point, and that’s evil, but again, desperation and the fact that those soldiers were likely to die too. Not justifying it, just reasoning.
“almost try” care to elaborate.
For Dreven yes, but he’s the only one that did that where you’re saying all San’layn are untrustworthy. Counter to Lana’thel raising her Princes in ICC.
lol no, you’re making the claim they were all wiped out, you provide the facts that back up your claim.
The Blood Princess in the riot was most likely starving so that overwrit her thinking, and again there’s those in the Death Knight Campaign.
All 6 of them (maybe), compared to the 1,000s of Forsaken. Whats the good to evil ratio on them I wonder? Just like Forsaken and Death Knights if we got to see more we would probably see non-evil ones.
Nothing.
So Sylvanas and Forsaken we’rent evil from the start but San’layn are? yeah, don’t buy that.
You’re condemning an entire race for what less than a handful have done.
But they were resurrected. And are capable of making more.
No one is asking them to “throw it in the trash” but it is not absolute state religion nor a decider for how the Horde functions or gains allies, we have plenty of non-shamanistic cultures, and then we also have Warlocks and Death Knights and Forsaken. And Nightborn and Blood Elves so we obviously don’t have a problem with elves.
Yeah, but their main thing (and who their souls are pledged to) is Bwonsamdi.
The first Cataclysm quest involving an NPC Goblin Shaman has you kill his elemental he bargained with so you can get a core from it. The Elemental demands rewriting it’s contract as it fades away.
The Blood Elves like their undead allies for the most part, and the Nightborne haven’t really commented on undeath.
They have the Shaman class but their “shamanisn” is world’s difference than the others. Also everyone can be Monks and their thing is life energy, not shamanism.
That’s a good question for the actual population numbers, but we don’t know for certain.
They’re not.
No? There’s plenty of reason to “change” that.
It’s not, you built up this argument just to mask that you simply don’t like elves.
LMAO, because that’s the only fiction that has werewolves and vampires in it XD
Less than a handful of times, you can find more than 6 evil Orcs/Taurens/Trolls/etc
Those aren’t
Using slurs, definitely a way to improve your argument.
I undertsand perfectly, you’re the one making assumptions.
Death Knights and Forsaken, very much do need to feed their hunger, Forsaken need to eat people, Death Knights have to inflict suffering. They have to.
What’s the difference.
They need to state something in order to retcon it, they can’t retcon something unstated or headcanoned.
You are the only one answering that, bereft of facts.
Don’t talk about the Horde Champion like that.
It isn’t, they need to eat flesh to avoid withering away, they start breaking down otherwise.
And you’re assuming they never have.
You not liking what I say =/= “not working” San’layn, Forsaken, and Death Knights are all in the same basket.
Because they are. They each suffer from different hungers.
Your claiming that it never happens is much more bold than me saying it’s most likely happened.
That is exactly how they work.
No they work with evil ones all the time.
Death Knights and Warlocks are in lore, they’re not just mechanics.
Possibly, we don’t have the actual realm pops. Darkspear came from a set of island being destroyed, Orcs were escaping internment camps, goblins had their island destroyed, and Panderen are from a giant turtle.
Show me where it’s state all San’layn are compeltely wiped out. or are inherently evil.
“We are Illidari” shrugs
That’s another assumption your having, especially involving the Sayaad.
You first.
Hmm, funny how those work.
Forsaken need to feed.
They don’t need to retcon stuff you’re making up.
We need allies and plenty of people do like them, the Forsaken and Blood Elves would like them
ANNNNNNNND there we have it.
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and what?
in one storyline, to be villains, and they never brought then again.
no, we have seen enough, the don’t have examples because they don’t exist, and they would need to retcon that.
cute to romantize his acts.
you know what is
yes rlly.
prove it, thats a lie.
they are not, nothing you said prove that.
not because a calss work different from a race.
only the player, by obvious gameplay mehcanics.
the cave system that they work with no one else knowing yeah.
prove otherwise then, i have my assumptions based on canon lore.
yeah like you did.
and thats not rly fit the “family” theme
he tried to boss over rokhan but he was put in his place.
literally what.
Again, check the wiki, the northrend campaign wipe then out, the only living ones were resurrected in icecrown, then died again, they retcon that.
sure, poor one.
thats about all of the sanlayn.
the false equivalence again;
when it goes against your point mean nothing? sure;
about to distort things.
an “entire race” of handful ones, who were all evil.
they were resurrected and died in the raid lmao.
they will have problems with evil elves, with the undead like then.
no matter how you try to portrait the vampires elves as the same of undeads and dks it will not work they are not the same.
who work in the realm of spirits, who work in the realm of shamanism.
thats why i said in a degree.
they are only grat for their help, just that, no one in their right mind would chose udneads over the living.
irrelevant still is a shamanism mindset.
we do know.
they are, and again, nothign you claim prove they are the same.
and what are those reasons? people wanting to play edgy elves and?
im yet to see another reason.
its the only one with pretty elves;
irrelevant.
they are.
there is nothing to improve since they are already on point.
your entire rant is “if” “maybe”, headcanon and assumptions, you want to talk about me making assumptions, cute.
prove it then.
???
they are already sated that in lore.
the fact is that they are evils, with nothing to imply otherwise beside wet dreams.
lmao, Dreven is not a horde champion.
but not all Forsaken have a necessity to feed
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Stagwiches
Forsaken diet consists of mushrooms
Forsaken diet consists of mushrooms, corpses, slime molds from the ooze canals of the Undercity, arthropods, and more
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Stagwiches
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Roach_Coach
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Escargot_A_Go-Go
you.are.wrong.
you are assuming they have, prove it, you demand that i proof my statements and can’t even proof crap here
the only similarity is they are undead, nothing more, you fail in eveyr attempt yo put then in this basket.
they don’t, you are making things up
then go on and proof that they did, don’t just stay with assumptions and headcanon.
they don’t and you ave being corrected.
prove it.
they don’t operate the way you think.
and again assumptions, with nothign to back up except your own mind, while the lore clearly imply that the elves and undeads are minority.
show me where they aren’t, cause i already show how all of then in lore who appear are evil, and they were wipe out in nortrend campaign.
illidari =/= illidan.
waiting here for you the demons making the blood oath.
cute.
still waiting for you to show some.
not on horde members.,
they need, and you are making things up, like dreaming they are good somehow.
we don’t, show me a single reason why we would need screwd in the head elves? too few, with no technology, with no armies, they would be a problem.
prove how the blood elves would want then.
aaaaaaaand we have the breaking point, people just want edgy elves, no matter what, lore can go to hell.
Apparently, I ran out of flags for the day ![:neutral_face:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/neutral_face.png?v=6" ":neutral_face:")
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