Sounds like pallies would benefit a lot from a second form of active mitigation like warriors. SotR for block and reduced dmg. Maybe they need to add an absorb to holy power spender. And have consecration move with the pally or just make it an aura, even release their mastery from consecration
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We already do. Paladins, when played correctly, are not that squishy. Especially to the point where people think it’s not viable or even unplayable.
Why so complex? Just buff Prot Pally’s SotR to match Warrior’s Shield Block: instead of a 4.5-second buff, increase it to 6 seconds. Instead of adding armor, block all melee attacks.
This way, the Prot Paladin’s base armor formula can also match exactly that of the Prot Warrior’s. It’s easy to balance and neither one of the 2 tanks will insanely outperform the other (unlike what has been since Legion).
SoTR stacks to 13 seconds. With the appropriate amount of haste, SoTR uptime should be near 100% during encounters. Paladins are still represented at all key levels at a higher rate than warriors, so it’s not underperforming.
It isn’t and anyone who says that is wrong and doesn’t know what they’re talking about. I’ve literally seen our raid tanks just stand there for minutes and not take damage, to the extent that I don’t even need to heal them.
Please no, more active mitigation isn’t better rather have more passive. I like feeling passively tanky. Which Prot has a lot of.
This isn’t entirely true as it’s dependent on block and mitigation. I would like to get specific on this to point out that Prot Pals are the most effective tanks to wield ANY absorbs due to mechanics.
Mastery triple dips on making absorbs more effective which is why on a high end block build Absorbs really shine.
Anytime an attack comes in the Pally has a chance to dodge/parry then Block. If a Block you get say 35% damage reduction to the attack. Then damage mitigation is factored in after the block such as Armor, Versa and Consecration. Then any remaining damage goes to your Absorb and that is calculated last.
This is why Absorbs are so powerful for a Prot Pal and in BFA I could take a 200k Gpyro or Chaos bolt and fully absorb them. Since they were reduced by 65% block, then all the dmg reduction 30%+ factored in before Absorb shield making you take zero dmg.
So the more Mastery you stack you get higher block, dmg reduction making your First Avenger shields absorb more effective while also boosting total absorb. So yes they are weak except in the right build then they are really strong and exponentially get better due to mechanics.
Which Blood splattered or any other absorb on a Mastery Prot Pal is the most effective absorbs in game. First Avenger is usually one of my top heals with Holy Shield they go hand and hand. Just some mechanics if anyone wants to go crazy with a different build.
That is probably because Prot Paladins do more damage as a tank. For M+ groups that have the healing strong enough to keep their tank’s HP up, some of them may favor Prot Pallies for the extra damage.
I did more testing recently. With 9.1 gear, Prot Paladins’ SotR armor reduces only ~15% incoming melee damage, while Consecration with the mastery effect reduce ~8% damage.
These are nowhere near Prot Warriors’ ~35% damage reduction from Shield Block (considering the effect of critical blocks), and on top of that, 50% damage reduction from Ignore Pain.
That said, in the current TBC timewalking, SotR scales very well, providing about ~30% damage reduction and this makes Prot Pallies slightly tankier.
In my humble opinion, Prot Paladins should receive some buffs:
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The damage reduction of Shield of the Righteous (SotR) should be corrected and re-use the 5.0 formula after developers carefully studied PvE data and balanced the tank classes (from 5.0.1 Build 15650): reduce a flat amount of 30% incoming physical damage.
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Word of Glory (WoG) should be able to generate an absorption shield from its overhealing (when used on self), which absorbs 50% of the damage taken (just like Ignore Pain). This would make the spell similar to when it was rebalanced in 3.3.5. A quick fix would be to change the Shielding Words conduit to work in this way.
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Consecration’s damage reduction effect (from Mastery: Divine Bulwark) should be moved to SotR: increase the physical damage reduction effect of SotR by (-- 3)%, on top of the 30% flat.
The current Consecration necessitates complex WeakAura scanning: Prot Paladin players need to program the addon to compute the duration left of the Consecration on the ground, given the condition that at least one stack of Consecration buff is found on the player. Moving Mastery: Divine Bulwark’s damage reduction effect to SotR will make this no longer necessary, and the Prot Paladins’ spell priority logical and intuitive.
That’s all your whole post is. You should stop theory crafting without actual first hand experience. There are too many variables you are leaving out like covenant buffs and abilities, low defensive cds, multiple interrupts, ect. Paladins don’t need superstar healers. I’ve done high keys with all healing classes and can face tank regardless.
LMAO. I concluded the above after I rerolled and found how much tankier the S-tier tanks are.
Icy Veins have maintained their assessment that Prot Paladins are currently a B-tier tank. You can defend your prejudice all you want, but Blizz is looking to balance the classes so all players can enjoy the game. Your personal hatred against Paladins does not justify keeping Prot Paladins underperforming in the current version.
Gimmicks are not variables. Do not confuse.
Icy Veins also has a disclaimer that says all tanks are close together in balancing regardless of the tier distinctions.
Just because you rerolled doesn’t mean you understand how to play the classes effectively. Paladins are only squishy when played incorrectly. The skill curve is much harder than Druids, that I can agree with. However, Paladins can do well in keys. Several weeks in, we are still represented more than several other tank classes.
Quit reading tier lists.
Ok. Lol what? My hatred? Where are you getting that. I am defending my class that I love to play. I tanked over 575 keys in season 1 and 90 so far in season 2. Even on fortified I was able to face tank +19s last week when I am only 240 ilvl. What will happen when I actually max out in gear?
Again, keep your theory crafting to yourself. You don’t have the experience to make bold claims on this topic.
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Close performing in the eyes of casual observers does not mean the game is balanced as a flagship MMO product. Realistically in M+, Prot Paladins are about 6~10%(?) squishier than Druids, DHs, and Warriors. This cannot be “felt” unless you play the healer, use addons to log categorized damage taken, or are competing head-to-head against other best-geared tanks for high keys.
The last point can be verified by the Raider Io M+ timed runs data. You cannot says all these top Prot Paladin players across the world lack “first hand experience” or have not mastered the “much harder” skill curve. The reality is, while Prot Paladins are popular (likely due to its DPS when tanking and its historical popularity from its class fantasy), we are significantly under-represented on the M+ top keys leaderboard.
In other words, although Prot Paladins are popular, even the best Prot Paladin players are stuck at +20~+23 keys while the best Druid, Warrior, and DH tanks are currently rocking +23~+25 timed runs (SL Season 2).
Casual observers? So Icy Veins is valid in creating their “Tier List”, but invalid when they make the distinction of the classes being balanced? How do you pick and choose what to believe?
This comes back to your lack of experience and skill. It’s obvious you struggled as a Paladin Tank and went to try an easier class. Paladins have been able to push beyond +20s since week 2 of Season 2. If we were “underperforming” how was that possible? The fact is that Paladins are viable in high keys when played correctly.
Paladins we not the least represented. We are not the most represented. Paladins are in the middle. That does not make them underperforming.
The reason that there are less Paladins in the top 100 leaderboard is because bleeding edge players will switch to “meta” specs/classes even for a 1% gain. This is a known thing. That’s why there was a massive change in representation from season 1 and 2. DH used to make up 80% of high keys and now they are switching over to Druids for that small meta gain. Yet, both are still very capable.
Here are the facts for keys +15 and above:
10.9% Warriors
17.4% Paladins
11.6% Death Knights
11.6% Monks
Here are the facts for +20 and above:
7.8% Warriors
9% Paladins
7.9% Death Knights
15% Monks
Paladins are not “under performing” when we are in the middle of the pack, literally. If anything Druids and DH are over performing above 4 other classes. Maybe they need a nerf?
It amuses me when people argue against facts.
Popularity does not imply class overperformance. When Prot Paladins receive our long overdue buffs one day, you will see these top Prot Paladin players climbing to the same high keys as Druid, Warrior, and DH tanks.
It amuses me when people cherry pick “facts” to support their claims. Representation is a big part of showing a classes performance. It’s not the whole picture, but is relevant. It’s even more amusing that you are looking at bleeding edge leaderboards and not realizing that players at that level will reroll at the drop of a dime for the smallest % of gain. We see the shift every patch/season. The fact that Paladin tanks have not seen any changes in all of the class tuning patches shows you that blizzard believes it is in a balanced position. They have all the data, even ones that we do not have access to.
The fact remains that Paladins are not the top, but we are far from the bottom. We are not “under performing” just because you hit a skill wall.
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Oddly there is a weird bug causing Prot Pal to take way way more damage then they should because Block isn’t working with First Avenger talent absorb.
Filed a bug report as well the question is are other Absorbs causing Block to not work? Priest shield, Monk Cocoon, Fleshcraft etc. This could be the major reason why sometimes taking spike damage.