ok
between 2.0 and 1.2 thats 3ish months of 1.2 and the reason i said many guilds didnt bother with nax because tbc was right around the corner.
whats there to argue about what i said wasnt wrong patch 1.2 was the last patch after nax right before tbc and we are playing easy mode classic wow?
classic wow is not vanilla wow its pretty much tbc wow.
and who cares?
The problem is that the changes that happened in the patch don’t support the claim that 1.12 is as nerfed as people claim.
Are players overall stronger in 1.12 compared to 1.1? Of course, but for Classic to be that nerfed from nothing but patch changes we’d need to be talking about a 100-200% increase.
and that simply did not happen from patch changes alone. Talent revamps and itemization changes were not that drastic.
I’d like something to show that many didn’t bother. A lot of people played it because it was still another 4 months before BC came out. And in those days, dates weren’t concrete. Remember, “soon™?”
I am just tired of people acting like Vanilla was always easy by saying that Naxx will be cleared in a week and that the only reason less than 1% cleared it before is “because no one cared.”
There was still a lot of effort into Naxx and it wasn’t easy then.
BUT for the sake of accuracy, 1.12 was NOT prepatch as has been claimed. That was 2.0.
Often people are saying, “1.12 is the BC patch” and that’s untrue.
That you are walking right into the explanation of the people making inaccurate statements? ie “Vanilla was always easy and Naxx will be cleared in a week lul. the only reason they didn’t is because it was irrelevant”
i played in pre launch of this is not the vanilla wow that i played this is pretty much the last patch before tbc 2.0 was the pre patch for tbc.
what this classic wow is is easy mode wow its not vanilla wow.
With that I agree but don’t contradict it by playing right into the hands of the people that are frothing at the mouth once the extra nerfing they have done results in a fast Naxx clear.
The argument has morphed away from 1.12 being prepatch as has been claimed, though. THAT is what I took issue with and any arguments similar.
there is nothing wrong with classic wow being easy its fun look at retail wow mythic radids are so overtuned only a few hundred guilds have beat it.
m+ keys at high lvls are so hard people cant do them.id rather have a fun and easy chill wow then a so over tuned no one can do the content wow.
No one asked for their version of vanilla(they didn’t design it). No one asked for YOUR version of vanilla. No one asked for it to be designed relative to retail.
They’re running a weakened patch further weakened by their attempts to simulate the spell batching, stat changes, and their screw-ups surrounding aoe threat.
People can say this all they want but there’s no evidence to support the claim that patch notes(or Classic “changes”) alone are the cause of this.
It’s likely a combination of things including both characters did get stronger and people got better.
We have a video of the world first rag kill where the Rogue is clicking and not using basic abilities like Slice and Dice. This isn’t some random idiot, this is a guy in a world first guild. They’re supposed to be top players.
and he was #2 DPS on the kill, in case you want to claim he was carried.
You can’t tell me top players are still that bad at this game.
so dont get mad when someone says classic wow is easy because it is.
You guys are rabid about that one video.
Do you normally get “mad” on the internet? Don’t project. I just correct inaccuracies and claiming 1.12 is prepatch is completely wrong. Morph it however you like but the original premise is incorrect. It doesn’t matter which side you’re arguing for. Don’t speak untruth.
Again, untrue.
1.12 is no more “BC” than 7.3.5 was BFA.
It’s a good example of just how good many players were back then. I can also point out the Death and Taxes Nef kill where they have keyboard turners and Paladins healing with Sulfuras on.
and the reason for using these videos is they’re not just randoms. We’re talking about guilds that at the time were considered some of the best guilds in the world.
and their videos are rife with things we can pick out of their players being bad by today’s standards.
It’s ridiculous to think that 1.1->1.12 didn’t buff players overall, but it’s equally ridiculous to think that the people who downed Rag in 1:40 on Classic are on par with people who don’t use basic abilities, don’t use the right items for their spec, or keyboard turn.
Rag was never particularly difficult. It was always a highly accessible entry level raid - it just took time to get enough gear and FR (which 1.12 trivialized). Watch world first Nihilum KT kill and tell me the same.
I see this claimed a lot, and its just not true. Naxx dropped in June 2006. BC came out 7 months later. This was a pretty standard release schedule for blizzard at the time. the 12 month+ content droughts didnt become the norm until far later.
People who don’t know a damn thing about how the patch and talent progression in Vanilla worked are the people who say the things you’re saying. Unfortunately, it’s like 90% of the playerbase.
If the healers go oom quicker it means that much less time a tank can stay standing. It means dps get no heals and can affords few mistakes and have to alot resources and time to survivability and not dps. If they don’t have their own survivability cooldowns they die sooner.
If tanks don’t have 1.12 abilities they don’t have as much ways to mitigate damage and they are reliant on the aforementioned healers who are much weaker. If they don’t have ways to generate as much threat then DPS have to play much more safely and can’t open up like they do on a 1.12 parce. Working threat meters were not a thing until way late in Vanilla’s lifespan.
If DPS do not have talents and abilities to enhance and buff damage or drop aggro then they are not as effective as they are on a 1.12 client. Mages didn’t get the Winter’s Chill talent until 1.8 or AQ. Bosses only had 8 debuffs slots so a lot of damaging abilities just couldn’t even be used.
None of these things function in a vacuum. They all come together to mean that all raids prior to the 1.12 patch were just harder because people did not have their final toolkits.
I don’t know why this is so hard for people to understand it blows my mind. Going in and nuking MC in 1-2 weeks on a nerfed 1.12 client is…expected. Especially from the private server community. Now if this was a 1.4 client, the patch Rag was originally downed on, THAT would be a feat or at the very least interesting.
What we have right now is the weakest versions of these bosses and dungeons and the strongest versions of the classes pre TBC patch.
KT was easy though, I’d be more interested in their 4hm kill since that was the real end game boss in Naxx. The guild I was in had it’s share of bad players too, but it wasn’t like the usual “20 people carrying 20 mediocre players” situation that most guilds ran into. We cleared Naxx with clickers and inefficient players.
Except I’ve been playing since the original closed beta and played all throughout vanilla…
Read the math, the numbers don’t lie… In blues going into MC, you get 1/2 of a GHeal R5 in a 3 minute fight from the 15% mana regen while casting talent. That’s not going to make or break the fight in 99.999% of cases.
Show me the exact changes that nerfed bosses and buffed players by this insane amount that people keep claiming… I’ll give you a head start. Oh and in 95% of the cases where it says something like “increased damage of heroic strike” it usually meant instead of being +30 dmg, it became +35 dmg: wowwiki DOT fandom DOT com/wiki/Patches/1.x
Here’s a good gem: “Most non-elite creatures in non-instanced areas of the world have had their hit points slightly increased starting from level 20.”
This is one that actually helped a tiny bit for healers when they would start a heal, but then cancel it. This was a common issue in raids and was more of a bug than an intentional design issue: “Mana regeneration is now disrupted when a spell has completed casting rather than at the start of casting. It will resume normally five seconds after the last spell cast. This change increases the total time spent regenerating mana and therefore increases the total contribution from Spirit for mana-based classes.”
Still not really seeing any massive changes like people are claiming though…
He could be refering to what 4h did to servers, the top guild on the server suddenly needs 8 raid geared tanks to fight this boss, easiest way to get them was to poach from other raid guilds.
My guild lost tanks at about the point TBC was only about 4-5 months out, guild had aq40 and bwl on farm, but hadnt pushed into naxx, since TBC was coming up and we were just farming old raids, tanks decided to see naxx and get better gear, everyone else didnt want to gear up new tanks so we could go back to farming the raids right before your raid gear becomes leveling gear.
It was a number of factors happening at the same time that kept alot of people out of naxx, had 4h not required tank poaching (you could just gear up raider alts, but that takes more time than snagging a fully decked out tank) and had there not been an expansion with a gear reset on the horizon, we probably would have moved into naxx through natural raid progression, but an expansion on the horizon changed everyones cost benefit analysis of raiding.
is that why only 119 guilds managed to kill him? 4hm had absurd tank requirements and was a giant gear check in that respect, it wasnt functionally any more difficult than kelthuzad.
poaching was a fact of life in vanilla. it neither started nor ended with 4HM. we actually had a few of our raiders on warrior alts for 4HM, it was more reliable than trying to poach tanks for a single encounter.
I’ll give you one. Threat buffs in 1.11.
Unless you were one of those guilds that were stuck in AQ40 until 1.11 you wouldn’t have noticed the threat difference when Naxx came out. Before Naxx came out, almost all DPS was threat capped. After 1.11 was released we could all go ham. Go figure.
And it wasn’t just shield slam. It was something else. Our MT was just laughing.
And right, patch notes or it didn’t happen right? There were plenty of ninja undocumented changes throughout Vanilla. Just like they didn’t document all the changes made during the Classic beta and on.