10/27/2018 07:10 AMPosted by
Darethy
To me, the Forsaken are experiencing an identity crisis right now, and it has nothing to do with viewing their state as a curse, it has everything to do with whether they want to be the people of Lordaeron again.
This, I don't see. Unless I'm missing something, the story never brings up Lordaeron after it was abandoned. While the Horde as a whole is being forced to question what it means to be Horde, there is a considerable absence to the Forsaken being forced to question what it is to be who they are.
Except for Thomas Zelling. Who is from Kul'Tiras. The narrative is about an Undead Kul'Tiran questioning what it means to have been Kul'Tiran. Not a person from Lordaeron.
To clarify, I'm not saying I want you to be wrong. I'm not even saying you are wrong. Hell, I can even hope you're right. But I'm saying it's hard for me to see where you're drawing this from when the story isn't presenting Lordaeron to us as far as I can tell.
10/27/2018 07:19 AMPosted by
Amadis
10/27/2018 07:10 AMPosted by
Darethy
To me, the Forsaken are experiencing an identity crisis right now, and it has nothing to do with viewing their state as a curse, it has everything to do with whether they want to be the people of Lordaeron again.
This, I don't see. Unless I'm missing something, the story never brings up Lordaeron after it was abandoned. While the Horde as a whole is being forced to question what it means to be Horde, there is a considerable absence to the Forsaken being forced to question what it is to be who they are.
Except for Thomas Zelling. Who is from Kul'Tiras. The narrative is about an Undead Kul'Tiran questioning what it means to have been Kul'Tiran. Not a person from Lordaeron.
To clarify, I'm not saying I want you to be wrong. I'm not even saying you are wrong. Hell, I can even hope you're right. But I'm saying it's hard for me to see where you're drawing this from when the story isn't presenting Lordaeron to us as far as I can tell.
When I say 'Want to be Lordaeron' what I mean isn't necessarily being the actual kingdom of Lordaeron so much as embracing Lordanian(And by extension human.) values again. Though I would argue that pretty much everything about the Forsakens reaction to Gilneas in Edge of Night, The very fact they had a grudge match with Arthas to begin with, and their mixed opinions of the Horde(in parts veering towards outright hatred.) and pretty much everything about
Before the Storm indicates the Forsaken very much hold on to their previous lives in some fashion.
Thomas Zelling also isn't really an outlier, he's just the character whom we've had the most development for. Even way back in Vanilla you could talk to a Forsaken leatherworker who gives you a short tale about attempting to reunite with his family and being chased out as they screamed at him in a language he couldn't understand.
The desire to be human is, or was, there. But as things progressed they eventually started veering into transhumanism because, frankly why wouldn't you? initially you'd focus on the negatives of your condition, but after awhile you'd notice there's advantages to an immense willpower, being able to sow on torn limbs, and functional immortality.
At this point I think it's safe to assume at least a few of them, with a decent basis of argument, view undeath as a superior state to life. The question is, if a society starts to think that way and produce that way, does it maintain it's living values? I don't know. Some groups like the Cult of the Forgotten Shadow have interesting answers to this, where they lean heavily into their new shadowy nature but have a focus on maintaining a connection to the Light, which is something I would like to see more of because it's cool to see a faction that offers a wholly unique viewpoint on the cosmic balance due to their life, and death, experiences. That anchor has largely allowed them to use the shadow without going insane.
You know...like Void Elves.
10/27/2018 06:14 AMPosted by
Darethy
At the same time, I think it also highlights the separation between Cata Forsaken and Vanilla Forsaken as well. The moment that they stopped hating what they were was the moment they actually began to grow in my eyes. There are few phrases I hate more in this world then 'What Joy is there in this Curse?'
It's just so....childish.
It's how kids think, that their lives have to be defined by pain because there's something different about them. To my eyes the Forsaken in their early stage were children, moping about their existence, their pain, without realizing in undeath they could actually live a life that was as...if not more...fulfilling then what they had.
That was kind of the appeal. Prior to Cataclysm, many others like myself loved the Forsaken because they were an extended version of the Warcraft 3 Human/Undead campaign.
You're an innocent person who suffered from the zombie apocalypse, regained your wits and now you're hunted by humans which wish to reclaim the only home you've ever known.
There was some blight and evil in the old Forsaken but that was primarily a subtheme behind all of them wishing to address unfinished business from before their life was cut short, demanding retribution on Arthas and those who caused their situation.
It was an interesting take on the human story.
Upon Cataclysm launching, it was less a continuation of the original story and more of going full Undead campaign when Arthas ruled. It felt disconnected.
Any visit of the Forsaken threads back in Cataclysm will make you see the sheer horror the playerbase--including Forsaken--had at the shift of character.
It was a larger version of the people disgusted by the Forsaken retcons in BTS.
1 Like
10/27/2018 07:10 AMPosted by
Darethy
To me, the Forsaken are experiencing an identity crisis right now, and it has nothing to do with viewing their state as a curse, it has everything to do with whether they want to be the people of Lordaeron again. They had given everything and in death, they simply did whatever it took, whatever they thought, would continue their own existence and own culture. Given the rest of Azeroth why wouldn't they? that is why they are Forsaken, because the peoples of this planet showed them their absolute ugliest side.
That internal struggle is more compelling then anyone else in the setting. I would not blame them for turning inward, even if my more optimistic self would like to see them once more turn outward.
I actually agree ... which is perhaps why I'm a bit more forgiving to the concept of "
Lightforged Undead" if it should come down more prominently on that ideological line, rather than a special "magic" mode (and as long as Calia is not the leader).
There are likely Forsaken, who even now, still identify (or wish to identify) as people of Lordaeron; with their past lives. These are likely the Forsaken who you could consider "
Calia's people". On the other hand there are Forsaken who now more strongly identify with their new lives and their Forsaken identities and culture.
So ... should we get that sort of faction split, I would have no problems with it should the leaders of the "
Undead of Lordaeron" be characters like Alonsus Faol or Leonid Bartholomew (characters who are traditional undead, but went to great lengths to ideologically preserve their identities from when they were alive).
On the other hand, I am absolutely convinced that at some point Sylvanas will do something so horrific (or a truth will be revealed about her) that she will push even the "
Forsaken" away. If, for example, her replacements were to be Nathanos Blightcaller and Lilian Voss ... it wouldn't be the worst choice.
1 Like
10/27/2018 07:19 AMPosted by
Amadis
10/27/2018 07:10 AMPosted by
Darethy
To me, the Forsaken are experiencing an identity crisis right now, and it has nothing to do with viewing their state as a curse, it has everything to do with whether they want to be the people of Lordaeron again.
This, I don't see. Unless I'm missing something, the story never brings up Lordaeron after it was abandoned. While the Horde as a whole is being forced to question what it means to be Horde, there is a considerable absence to the Forsaken being forced to question what it is to be who they are.
Except for Thomas Zelling. Who is from Kul'Tiras. The narrative is about an Undead Kul'Tiran questioning what it means to have been Kul'Tiran. Not a person from Lordaeron.
To clarify, I'm not saying I want you to be wrong. I'm not even saying you are wrong. Hell, I can even hope you're right. But I'm saying it's hard for me to see where you're drawing this from when the story isn't presenting Lordaeron to us as far as I can tell.
^
While many Forsaken may be native from Lordaeron we cannot deny that some others that were raised (previously & presently) are from other nations as well...even Elven. Thus it can be presumed not every Forsaken shares the same enthusiasm regarding Lordaeron, and who knows....even some still defiance about the Lordaeron’s ideal of restoration.
It’s very overwhelming to state something logical as Forsaken just like humans are a diverse much individuals from all walks of life, sharing the same fate...how cruel indeed
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I often wonder if the story forums has kind of gotten trapped in its own cumulative headcanon. There’s a lot of assumptions that have just kind of been absorbed into the consensus without due examination - I certainly don’t try and push back on Saiphas’ and Grandblade’s conclusions about the pathos/trajectory of the story, despite disagreeing entirely, because it’s not something you can really argue productively. But in not voicing a dissent, that has gained traction as the presumed authoritative view.
The point I’m getting at is that there’s so much insistence that the story has to end with Sylvanas dead or deposed that I worry there’s no exploration of what I would consider the most interesting
You are right. I believe it is simply the nature of the Story Forums.
Even this thread is some emotional rant explaining a frequent posters irrational bias against a playable race.
But almost everyone here has settled on their Alliance biased narrative - and they expect and DEMAND Blizzard bow to their wishes.
I agree with you - there is little value in challenging the prevailing notions every time the "Group Think" settles in. But they should be called out.
Any defense of the Horde's reasons are waved away as "waifu" ( im guessing thats some trendy asian word for girl?).
I dont claim to agree with you on anything other than this point - I won't lump you with me on our philosophy. But yeah - these Story Forums have become an Alliance RP headcanon circle wank instead of discussions on the Story Blizzard is setting for us.
Which is a shame. I am glad others have noticed. All we can do is point it out at our leisure and laugh a little as Blizzard writes around these tears.
1 Like
10/27/2018 07:31 AMPosted by
Tewdee
10/27/2018 06:14 AMPosted by
Darethy
At the same time, I think it also highlights the separation between Cata Forsaken and Vanilla Forsaken as well. The moment that they stopped hating what they were was the moment they actually began to grow in my eyes. There are few phrases I hate more in this world then 'What Joy is there in this Curse?'
It's just so....childish.
It's how kids think, that their lives have to be defined by pain because there's something different about them. To my eyes the Forsaken in their early stage were children, moping about their existence, their pain, without realizing in undeath they could actually live a life that was as...if not more...fulfilling then what they had.
That was kind of the appeal. Prior to Cataclysm, many others like myself loved the Forsaken because they were an extended version of the Warcraft 3 Human/Undead campaign.
You're an innocent person who suffered from the zombie apocalypse, regained your wits and now you're hunted by humans which wish to reclaim the only home you've ever known.
There was some blight and evil in the old Forsaken but that was primarily a subtheme behind all of them wishing to address unfinished business from before their life was cut short, demanding retribution on Arthas and those who caused their situation.
It was an interesting take on the human story.
Upon Cataclysm launching, it was less a continuation of the original story and more of going full Undead campaign when Arthas ruled. It felt disconnected.
Any visit of the Forsaken threads back in Cataclysm will make you see the sheer horror the playerbase--including Forsaken--had at the shift of character.
It was a larger version of the people disgusted by the Forsaken retcons in BTS.
Which is a completely valid way to look at it. At the same time eventually you have to move past self pity and revenge, start building an actual life. With all the good and evil that entails, if the Forsaken characterization in Vanilla maintained itself up to now I would actually probably hold the race in enormous contempt.
Cata did at least, go out of it's way to show flashes of sympathy. Captain Jekyll, Forward Commander Onslaught, Apothecary Lydon, none of whom were what i'd describe as bad people per say. I'd even go so far as to say Jekyll was an outright good person.
1 Like
10/27/2018 07:29 AMPosted by
Darethy
When I say 'Want to be Lordaeron' what I mean isn't necessarily being the actual kingdom of Lordaeron so much as embracing Lordanian(And by extension human.) values again.
See, this creates a dialogue disconnect that's getting in the way of our conversation. Lordaeron values - and especially considering Lordaeron values as representative of being Human - that's not something that Undead that aren't from Lordaeron would share. People from Lordaeron, Gilneas, Kul'Tiras, and Stormwind would have as different of values as people from Vietnam, China, the Philippines, and Australia have from each other. There are too many cultures with so many different values to see any one culture as the means to connecting with what it means to be Human.
And maybe this isn't what you mean at all, and something is getting lost in translation. But Thomas Zelling is shocked at what happened to Derek Proudmoore because Derek Proudmoore was a Kul'Tiran hero, and in addition to that, it present it as Thomas Zelling not even really knowing what the Forsaken of Lordaeron have been up to if what unsettles Thomas Zelling is the dead not being given the choice to become Undead the way he made the choice while he was still alive. This is a perspective that comes from someone who isn't from Lordaeron and hasn't seen what Sylvanas has done there.
10/27/2018 07:29 AMPosted by
Darethy
The desire to be human is, or was, there. But as things progressed they eventually started veering into transhumanism because, frankly why wouldn't you? initially you'd focus on the negatives of your condition, but after awhile you'd notice there's advantages to an immense willpower, being able to sow on torn limbs, and functional immortality.
I don't think Blizzard would really be able to handle that with as much nuance as you'd like. We pretty much have the exact example of that in the Worgen already, and if anything people complain that it just makes the Worgen not actually Worgen, just werewolves in top hats who don't even try to get other Humans to also be Worgen despite that it should be considered extremely great to be one by now.
10/27/2018 07:58 AMPosted by
Darethy
I'd even go so far as to say Jekyll was an outright good person.
I agree. He's a rare example of a Forsaken letting people keep their home during a time of expansionism.
10/27/2018 07:29 AMPosted by
Darethy
When I say 'Want to be Lordaeron' what I mean isn't necessarily being the actual kingdom of Lordaeron so much as embracing Lordanian(And by extension human.) values again.
See, this creates a dialogue disconnect that's getting in the way of our conversation. Lordaeron values - and especially considering Lordaeron values as representative of being Human - that's not something that Undead that aren't from Lordaeron would share. People from Lordaeron, Gilneas, Kul'Tiras, and Stormwind would have as different of values as people from Vietnam, China, the Philippines, and Australia have from each other. There are too many cultures with so many different values to see any one culture as the means to connecting with what it means to be Human.
And maybe this isn't what you mean at all, and something is getting lost in translation. But Thomas Zelling is shocked at what happened to Derek Proudmoore because Derek Proudmoore was a Kul'Tiran hero, and in addition to that, it present it as Thomas Zelling not even really knowing what the Forsaken of Lordaeron have been up to if what unsettles Thomas Zelling is the dead not being given the choice to become Undead the way he made the choice while he was still alive. This is a perspective that comes from someone who isn't from Lordaeron and hasn't seen what Sylvanas has done there.
[/quote]
This is
kind of true, and kind of not. Lordanian values are really kind of the core values that people take across...not all, but many human nations and expanded in size. Lordanians themselves are a group of humans who migrated north from the ancient kingdom of Strom and named their city out of the Arathi hero Lordain.
In general the deep sense of faith, benevolence, and strength that humanity came to draw from for inspiration came from Lordaeron, it's little wonder why they were basically the last bastion of humanity in the second war. There's actually a rather neat little background about why this is, and it's because the Titan watcher Tyr became a large part of Trisfal culture and Tyr is primarily recognized for his self sacrifice which humans interpreted to mean that personal sacrifice is needed for justice and order.
Hell the Silver Hand's namesake is part of Tyr's mythology, that it's likely fighting several Lordanian citizens now has layers of irony to it.
Which is why Lordaeron was sort of the 'big good' of the second war. You could almost view them as the benevolent aspects of humanity emphasized to the 10th degree, it's also little wonder why they voted against killing all the Orcs. So Lordanian culture and their mythos is core in many ways to human identity.
Which has largely been absent I feel from humans until late, some people are probably going to puke in their mouth at this but I actually admire Anduin Wyrnn a lot(After Saiphas did a LOT of convincing.) because in retrospect he embodies a lot of core Lordanian values.
10/27/2018 08:14 AMPosted by
Darethy
In general the deep sense of faith, benevolence, and strength that humanity came to draw from for inspiration came from Lordaeron
See, my point is that this isn't actually the case. Thomas Zelling is a Tidesage. His faith is not in Tyr's mythology, it's not in the Light, it's not in the Shadow. It's in the Sea. That's so completely different from anything that comes from Lordaeron that Lordaeron over all does not actually stand as a core of Humanity any more than Howling Fjord does because humans came from the Vyrkul from there.
10/27/2018 06:06 AMPosted by
Amadis
Thank you for sharing Galenorn. You parallel Darethy much more closely than I do, in terms of identifying your culture with a playable race in WoW. You bring to the conversation something that I cannot, and I thank you for it.
And though your reason for moving away from the Forsaken is based on a different foundation than mine, I think you presented why the Forsaken spreading their suffering was becoming the monsters they hated far better than I did, so thank you for that as well.
Thank you for making the thread.
It's easy to sit here and throw around opinions all day. Especially with something as subjective as the story. But I always enjoy finding out
why someone thinks the way they do, what makes them tick. Does somebody like something for a reason as simple as aesthetic choices? Is there something deeper that speaks to them? Do they even know? Those are the things I like to try and puzzle out when I don't agree with someone. Or just sit and muse on for the hell of it, lol.
1 Like
10/27/2018 08:24 AMPosted by
Amadis
10/27/2018 08:14 AMPosted by
Darethy
In general the deep sense of faith, benevolence, and strength that humanity came to draw from for inspiration came from Lordaeron
See, my point is that this isn't actually the case. Thomas Zelling is a Tidesage. His faith is not in Tyr's mythology, it's not in the Light, it's not in the Shadow. It's in the Sea. That's so completely different from anything that comes from Lordaeron that Lordaeron over all does not actually stand as a core of Humanity any more than Howling Fjord does because humans came from the Vyrkul from there.
I did say
most, Kul'tiras is different for various reasons. One of which is that it's a Gilnean colony that's distent from the rest of the human race relatively speaking. But a Stromgarde human or a Stormwind human would feel
way differently about that, hell the latter practically fetishizes Old Lordaeron.
You have to keep in mind that there are far fewer humans in WoW then there are in real life, with much, MUCH broader domains. That said I do think Thomas Zelling is interesting because even a Gilnean would be compatible to some degree, but Tidesages are so far removed compared to anything on the mainland.
1 Like
Thank you for making the thread.
It's easy to sit here and throw around opinions all day. Especially with something as subjective as the story. But I always enjoy finding out why someone thinks the way they do, what makes them tick. Does somebody like something for a reason as simple as aesthetic choices? Is there something deeper that speaks to them? Do they even know? Those are the things I like to try and puzzle out when I don't agree with someone. Or just sit and muse on for the hell of it, lol.
I agree with you. I also figured I might as well just tell people my
why instead of leaving them not actually understanding me. And also why I appreciated your post explaining why you feel the way you do as well.
10/27/2018 08:32 AMPosted by
Darethy
That said I do think Thomas Zelling is interesting because even a Gilnean would be compatible to some degree, but Tidesages are so far removed compared to anything on the mainland.
I agree. But that also gets back to my point. Thomas Zelling being the voice of questioning what it means to be Forsaken really creates a huge absences in a person from Lordaeron questioning what it means to be Forsaken, specifically because Thomas Zelling is from Kul'Tiras.
And you might be right, that Nathanos can maybe fit that open space for someone from Lordaeron questioning what it means to be Forsaken. But they're going to have to put a lot of work into that - and it will especially have to hold strong against a Nathanos presentation as a general for the Darkshore Warfront where he is still completely and unquestioningly loyal to Sylvanas, which will be a presentation we will see playably extended out for the rest of the expansion because of Darkshore Warfront's accessibility throughout therein.
10/27/2018 08:32 AMPosted by
Darethy
That said I do think Thomas Zelling is interesting because even a Gilnean would be compatible to some degree, but Tidesages are so far removed compared to anything on the mainland.
I agree. But that also gets back to my point. Thomas Zelling being the voice of questioning what it means to be Forsaken really creates a huge absences in a person from Lordaeron questioning what it means to be Forsaken, specifically because Thomas Zelling is from Kul'Tiras.
And you might be right, that Nathanos can maybe fit that open space for someone from Lordaeron questioning what it means to be Forsaken. But they're going to have to put a lot of work into that - and it will especially have to hold strong against Nathanos presentation as a general for the Darkshore Warfront where he is still completely and unquestioningly loyal to Sylvanas, which will be a presentation we will see playably extended out for the rest of the expansion because of Darkshore Warfront's accessibility throughout therein.
Which is true, however my broader point is that Stormwind and Stromgarde while not part of old Lordaeron would both be able to find comfort in Lordanian values. Gilneans weren't really ever a problem because the blessing of Elune kept them from being raised, though I have no idea if that still holds true to this day.
Kul'tirans are essentially a new aspect added to what was formally a clear cut line to me before BfA, that the humans under the Forsaken if they wanted to build a better future could likely mimic older Lordaeron and get a large amount of their new population behind it.
I'm not disagreeing with you so much as saying, until now this kind of culture shock hasn't really happened before and that Thomas Zelling is a massive outlier in this regard. If they choose to explore that in the future with more Kul'tirans i'd be very interested in it.
1 Like
10/27/2018 08:44 AMPosted by
Darethy
Which is true, however my broader point is that Stormwind and Stromgarde while not part of old Lordaeron would both be able to find comfort in Lordanian values.
Stormwind and Stromgarde I will certainly agree with you with, given the lion symbolism used everywhere throughout both.
10/27/2018 08:44 AMPosted by
Darethy
I'm not disagreeing with you so much as saying, until now this kind of culture shock hasn't really happened before and that Thomas Zelling is a massive outlier in this regard. If they choose to explore that in the future with more Kul'tirans i'd be very interested in it.
I would also find their exploration of Kul'Tiran culture in the lens of the Forsaken to be interesting.
However, I still think they need to put a lot more work into the Forsaken from Lordaeron questioning what it means to be so for your view of that happening to reflect in the game. So far in BfA we have only had Forsaken from Lordaeron who are loyal to Sylvanas, and even now players get the option to be loyal to her, too. It appears quite the opposite to me of what you were saying.
10/27/2018 08:37 AMPosted by
Amadis
And you might be right, that Nathanos can maybe fit that open space for someone from Lordaeron questioning what it means to be Forsaken. But they're going to have to put a lot of work into that - and it will especially have to hold strong against a Nathanos presentation as a general for the Darkshore Warfront where he is still completely and unquestioningly loyal to Sylvanas, which will be a presentation we will see playably extended out for the rest of the expansion because of Darkshore Warfront's accessibility throughout therein.
The issue with Nathanos is that while Sylvanas' deathgrip on him does seem to be finally showing a crack or two, the ONLY time he really got upset at her was during "BfS"; when she attacked her own people. He may have hesitated at Teldrassil, but it was only for a moment; it was Forsaken he seems to care for.
So ... if we want him to go through any growth (and gain some individuality) its likely going to have to come from Sylvanas doing something horrific to the Forsaken themselves. He does seem to have some level of a protective nature towards them at the very least, so she needs to do something to really damage her cult of personality.
1 Like
10/27/2018 07:58 AMPosted by
Darethy
10/27/2018 07:31 AMPosted by
Tewdee
...
That was kind of the appeal. Prior to Cataclysm, many others like myself loved the Forsaken because they were an extended version of the Warcraft 3 Human/Undead campaign.
You're an innocent person who suffered from the zombie apocalypse, regained your wits and now you're hunted by humans which wish to reclaim the only home you've ever known.
There was some blight and evil in the old Forsaken but that was primarily a subtheme behind all of them wishing to address unfinished business from before their life was cut short, demanding retribution on Arthas and those who caused their situation.
It was an interesting take on the human story.
Upon Cataclysm launching, it was less a continuation of the original story and more of going full Undead campaign when Arthas ruled. It felt disconnected.
Any visit of the Forsaken threads back in Cataclysm will make you see the sheer horror the playerbase--including Forsaken--had at the shift of character.
It was a larger version of the people disgusted by the Forsaken retcons in BTS.
Which is a completely valid way to look at it. At the same time eventually you have to move past self pity and revenge, start building an actual life. With all the good and evil that entails, if the Forsaken characterization in Vanilla maintained itself up to now I would actually probably hold the race in enormous contempt.
Cata did at least, go out of it's way to show flashes of sympathy. Captain Jekyll, Forward Commander Onslaught, Apothecary Lydon, none of whom were what i'd describe as bad people per say. I'd even go so far as to say Jekyll was an outright good person.
I would've enjoyed seeing a divide in what it means to be Forsaken. A schism within the ranks on where to go.
Some embrace their undeath and make a new life for themselves forged through their hatred, which could've led to the nuSaken that currently exist.
Others could wish to make the most out of their situation and rebuild their former lives. A farmer returning to tending to his fields or a mason which wants to rebuild the capital to it's former glory, etc.
The annoying aspect by Blizzard ignoring the second aspect is removing the interesting dynamic of war veterans of both the Alliance and the Horde coexisting. Imagine an undead soldier who died in WC3 but fought Orcs in WC2, still showing disdain for the Orcs but appreciates their mutual alliance
1 Like
10/27/2018 08:49 AMPosted by
Amadis
10/27/2018 08:44 AMPosted by
Darethy
Which is true, however my broader point is that Stormwind and Stromgarde while not part of old Lordaeron would both be able to find comfort in Lordanian values.
Stormwind and Stromgarde I will certainly agree with you with, given the lion symbolism used everywhere throughout both.
10/27/2018 08:44 AMPosted by
Darethy
I'm not disagreeing with you so much as saying, until now this kind of culture shock hasn't really happened before and that Thomas Zelling is a massive outlier in this regard. If they choose to explore that in the future with more Kul'tirans i'd be very interested in it.
I would also find their exploration of Kul'Tiran culture in the lens of the Forsaken to be interesting.
However, I still think they need to put a lot more work into the Forsaken from Lordaeron questioning what it means to be so for your view of that happening to reflect in the game. So far in BfA we have only had Forsaken from Lordaeron who are loyal to Sylvanas, and even now players get the option to be loyal to her, too. It appears quite the opposite to me of what you were saying.
I mean to be frank? that's because the Forsaken, and Sylvanas have basically just become an extension of Lordanian culture through the lens of undeath to a degree. Just because they don't wear the crest, or use the name, doesn't mean that much of their existence isn't caught up in their past lives. If Amelia Stone is any indication that's not even true of the Kul'tirans outside Zelling, there's identity carry over across the board.
But do the Forsaken want to remain entrenched in those past lives, in that former kingdom or do they want to become something new? The Former I feel leads to the problem I had with Vanilla and that is them essentially being miserable and pained over what they used to be, and in BtS seems to follow that trend with Sylvanas banning Lordanian literature because she felt it was actively making her people miserable.
I don't personally understand the notion that the Forsaken have always been loyal to Sylvanas, especially when talking about Cata and BfA because to my eyes one of the reoccurring themes was that disloyalty Lilan Voss, the Rotbrains, Godfrey, the Forsaken who split to talk to the Dalaran magi about Bloodstone, the Desolate Council, Warden Stillwater, even Nathanos as I mentioned is expressing doubts and Thomas Zelling is one more name to add to that list. In fact I would go so far as to say
more people had hangups with Sylvanas and her methodology in Cata and BfA then they ever had in Vanilla.And so for me from Cata, where the Forsaken started to grow as a race, it's natural to me that they are starting to question who they are and who they want to be, i'd even go so far as to say there's more representation for diverse opinions on the Forsaken then in pretty much any other race despite people saying they are mindless drones.