Considering that Shamans can see the future I’m a little jealous. After threads like these I cannot blame them.
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The whole point of the deal with Azshara was that the trolls ceded all that territory without a fight. It expressly states that once border skirmishes started as the night elves’ growing territory butted up against that of the trolls, the Zandalari approached Azshara and created their pact to avoid an actual war.
It sucked for the trolls to lose that land, and one can ague that the treaty was a wrongfully lopsided one, but per its terms and very purpose for existing they weren’t being wiped out to get that land. That was the express reason that the Zandalari made their deal with Azshara; they knew that if it did turn into open warfare between empires of elves and trolls, the elves would inevitably win, largely due to their possessing the Well of Eternity’s power.
It wasn’t a genocidal conquest specifically because the annexation of those lands was accomplished in accordance with the treaty to which the trolls had agreed to cut off further fighting. There was no full-blown war between the night elves and trolls because the Zadalari went out of their way to appease Azshara for the purpose of not letting things actually get to that point.
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Yes, lets blame Jaina for -almost- commiting genocide and in the same thread, encourage genocide.
I know it sucks, but its how Blizzard has written the Horde.
Sorry to say it, dudes, but you can’t really give any credit to the Horde when it comes to the War of Thorns. If anything it should be counted as their single most embarrassing moment in WoW’s history. Strategically it was a disaster, seeing as their mission they believed they were on was to eliminate Malfurion and break the Night Elves will to fight, something which failed spectacularly.
In truth though this was Sylvanas playing the Horde like a bad harp and massacring a bunch of civilians so she could get some recognition from her new sugardaddy.
If War of Thorns is to be recognized as anything by the Horde, it should be an example of what NOT to do.
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“Genocide is only bad if you don’t succeed at it”
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Not what I said. I already explained my stance on Jaina. She was emotionally compromised yet ultimately made the decision not to let her hysteria lead to something regrettable.
It’s not great, but it’s not genocide. Horde can’t say they have ever been able to not let emotions drive their actions.
Your “difference” is only another application of the “Alliance did Nothing Wrong”. For example, here you ignore that not everyone killed was “resisting arrest” and, in anyway, you had no right to arbitrary arrest people without evidence because of their race in the first place.
Now I’m sure you will continue with the usual (‘because we had “suspicious” about one BE, we could arrest shopkeepers who didn’t even know it happened and kill them if they don’t come quietly’) sort of thing. We have heard it all before. My point there is that before Blizzard hit the Horde with the villain bat in BfA, such “did nothing wrong” spin was all you had to try and claim moral superiority.
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No, it isn’t. The whole point of the deal with Azshara is that she was trying to shame the trolls. The night elves had already conquered most of the world with the Titan’s blood. At that point she added insult to injury by forcing the trolls to police themselves in the Night Elves’ name.
I disagree. It was a Good War up until Sylvanas sent rogues to murder civilians behind the army, and burned the tree. Saurfang wanted to spare as many people as possible and it’s a fact as clear and canonical crystal.
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Sure they can. Just recently Telanji decided to not outright pursue war with Kul’Tiras to avenge Rastakhan, instead choosing to maintain the peace for the time being and join the Horde Council. There are other examples as well done by folks like Baine, Lorthemar, and others.
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For the record, Jaina had some of her troop fighting in the war before both the theft of the Bell and even Theremore. Dalaran neutrality was a joke.
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Yeah, but that’s all very, very recently. The Horde is changing what has been fundamental aspects of Horde identity. Only after the Alliance has had to suffer multiple cities, towns and Villages being obliterated.
At this point, it’s really just the Horde saying “We really need to make some changes because there is no way in Fel the Alliance will let us get away with this another time.”
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Its always interesting how, when one brings up what happened to the Stonepire tribe, you hear "that wasn’t the Alliance, just some people who did it on their own. You can’t blame the whole Alliance. But when it is the other side, it is “the Horde” so you can blame Saurfang (who went out his way to save civilians) for Sylvanas’ actions.
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“You can leave before we start bombing stuff. Where will you go? Right through those shark infested waters.”
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You still said “They Never Have!” though. Recently or not, this proves you wrong on that front.
Lol, it’s funny for you to say that since the same thing was said after Garrosh was defeated and Vol’jin took over. Let’s face facts here. Any aspect of proper retribution that the Alliance has ever had or will ever only let it go and be all forgiving.
I would love to be proven wrong on this.
Also, I don’t think Telanji gives a crap about “Alliance retribution”. She stayed her hand because she recognizes there are bigger issues at hand and unity is the best way to get things done.
Good for Saurfang I guess to want to do things honorably. The problem is though that they still started a war for stupid reasons. Secure Kalimdor for the Horde by stealing all of Night Elf lands and forcing them all to the Eastern Kingdoms is still morally ugly in itself.
None of this changes the fact that the Horde still got used by Sylvanas like it was an old worn out shoe good only for a door stop.
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Oh, I see. When Alliance gives Horde civilians a path to escape that leads to their death it’s no big deal.
When Horde gives Alliance civilians a path to escape that leads to their death it’s all bad.
Got it.
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The problem is that they didn’t start the war. Genn and Admiral what’s her bucket did.
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It would be the Alliance’s responsibility of it was the Alliance acting as the Alliance under the deliberate command of Alliance Leadership. What happened to the Stonespire was not that. Just about every atrocity the Horde is blamed for is something the Horde, acting as it’s own institution, has done. Not by uncontrolled Horde associated vagrants, but the Horde.
You are assuming Hawthorn was aware that there were Quillboar waiting to pick off civilians. Even still, it is more than the Horde has ever done.
How is this comparable? They Alliance did not allow civilians flee only to gun them down later. The Horde, on the other hand, did exactly that.
Actually, Vol’jinn did in Ashran.
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You assume Saurfang knew Sylvanas would order Teldrassil burned when he had us release those civilians.
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Nah.