It refers to younger, not physically not fully growth dragons. None of this comments on his mental cognition. Again, which appears equivalent to adult dragons.
Physically he’s not fully grown. Mentally, he seems fully grown. Dragons do no grow in the same manner that humans do. Mental and physical ability evidently develop at far different rates.
Well, I might have something more to say if you can manage to actually bring some more evidence to the conversation. But if all you are going to do is say the same refuted claims over and over again, this is all the effort you deserve.
No, I just quote short bits to reference the context of my replies. Otherwise, I feel my posts are unnecessarily long and repetitive, like yours. Anyone who thinks I am taking things out of context can jump up to the reply and read it for themselves.
Because racism is not so broadly defined. Something that just happened to be reminiscent of a certain part of our history isn’t racism. This is a fantasy world, not cultural or racial commentary.
There -IS- evil in Voodoo. There are plenty of malevolent Loa. Like the Guede or Ti Jean Zandor. Furthermore, human sacrifice might not have been done in the name of Quetzalcoatl, but human sacrifice was a pivotal part of the Aztec religion, AND the Mayans certainly sacrificed to Kukulkán, the Plumed Serpent of their Pantheon. So, again, stop framing information to suit your own headcount, and your predisposition to see racism in everything. You are just coming off as ignorant and self righteous.
I wouldn’t say more likely, but sure, it did happen. And we actually see instances of human Sacrifice to Elune. But it’s usually the sacrifice of her enemies.
Well… Neo-pagan. They also include Greek and Egyptian inspired Gods.
Which, you know is an anti-human sacrifice story, right?
I don’t subscribe to any of the Abrahamic religions, so it doesn’t matter to me how you view it, but since you have a habit of misrepresenting things to suit your bias, I need to correct you.
A Sacrifice to end all Sacrifice, yes.
Yeah, but you are wrong. Not only does your lazy comparison between MesoAmerican and European faiths showcase your bias, you are blatantly incorrect about assumptions of Haitian Voodou. In all of these Pantheons, African, Mesoamerican, Pre-Abrahamic European, there are benevolent and malevolent Gods. Some of them aren’t malevolent, yet still welcome human sacrifice. That’s not racist, that happened across the board, and from the perspective of a culture that doesn’t do such things, it likely comes off as privative and savage. And you know what? That’s a fair thing to say. I don’t think anyone wants to bring those traditions back.
That is the perspective of most of the playable race Who come into conflict with Trolls. Notably humans, Dwarves, and Blood Elves. You know who didn’t come into conflict with Trolls until they joined with the Horde and invaded? Night Elves. From Vanilla through Wrath, the Trolls in Darkshore were living peacefully. Even in Warcraft 3, Tyrande joins with a Tribe of Dark Trolls on Mount Hyjal to combat the Legion. A stark difference between Arthas and even Thrall, who Regarded the Drakkari and Amani with distain upon meeting them.
One has culture conflicts with the Trolls, the other has fewer. That is ultimately what this comes down two. Not racial coding to the real world, but the relationships between races that exist on Azeroth, and from what lens it is being perceived from (Playable races). It’s world building.
Could it be done better? Sure. No argument there. But FFS, it’s not Blizzard being racist lol.
You know the forums have a feature to expand quote, right? Also to jump up to the pervious quote. I am not cutting anything. I specifically quote parts so people can reference back to what I am replying too.
Again, I have refuted this. The Wormwing were assaulting Shrines on Hyjal and actively trying to stop Aviana’s resurrection.
If I wanted to assume bad motive on your part, I might suspect you intentionally make these long, repetitive posts (While also cutting out much of my own Reponses) just to bury the opposition and not have to contend with holes in your arguments.
No it’s not. This is their mission statement. “dedicated to creating the most epic entertainment experiences…ever.” So, I don’t have to attribute motive. They are telling me their motive.
If you want to assume Blizzard is actively trying to tell a racist story that is glorifying colonialism, then that is a claim you need to prove. Which you have failed to do. All of your evidence, so far, has been perceived through the lenses of your racially coded glasses.
When you see everything through the lens of race, and you want to be over sensitive about everything, everything becomes racist.
It’s not the truth though. If anything, you are the one who are looking at these fantasy races, at this world very unlike the real one, seeing these monstrous races that do not exist in the real world. That worship Gods that do not exist in the real world, and attributing them to real people.
That’s racist.
And that’s the problem. We never see anything about the Sisterhood, and that is the cultural core of the Modern Day Night Elves.
The Highborne, Druids, and Illidari are external. The Highborne and Illidari specifically, are not representative of the modern Kaldorei at all.
I am not sure you know what expeditionary means. They were explorers, not armies.
No they didn’t. The maps are several hundred/thousand years apart. No evidence of conquest or war exist between that time. When the Trolls are described as openly hostel, and Azshara is specifically described and being disinterested in conquest, then there was no conquest. The lore doesn’t support your headcanon. Get over it.
Plenty of people have, and they aren’t wrong. My headcanon isn’t supported by the lore, and I don’t pretend it’s an objective truth either. It is how I choose to interpret the world. I have said several times, your interpretation is valid, but don’t pretend like it’s objective.
But you continue to argue, because you are a disingenuous person.
Show me how it was justified.
You said this already, and I proved you wrong.
If you were a disingenuous person, you would argue that they did get over it and are now super best friends with their enemies. Which is what you are arguing, so I guess that means you are disingenuous.
Just like they did to Illidan in TBC and the Illidan Novel.
War of Thorns.
You can make up unsupported percentages all you want, doesn’t make it true.
Yes they do. Go and do the preCata Quests in Nelf zones. It’s all about those issues.
Thiralee didn’t like sharing the perch on the mountain with them to begin with, and NOW she has a reason to drive them from Hyjal. You keep ignoring that and claim that all she cares about is them destroying the shrine, as if she didn’t hate them before and isn’t using this as a reason to get rid of them now.
I have to repeat myself because you keep editing so much of the content from peoples’ posts that nobody can tell what you’re even refuting, especially because you yourself bother to offer any kind of references or sources.
I quote you in full. I don’t leave out any of your links or references (not that you offer any). I’ve even gone so far as to only post in this thread once a day, allowing not just you, but other people the chance to respond and not drown others out.
Meanwhile you…“Will quote increasingly short fragments of your post while furiously ignoring everything else and occasionally also ignoring the fragments”
A bunch of snort snippy replies devoid of original context is how one really drowns out a conversation. Nobody can tell what you’re even talking about unless they scroll up and read the entirety of the previous posts for proper context. Which of course you’re counting on people not to do.
And yet you argue against people who suggest otherwise instead of just acknowledging the validity of their interpretations.
Heck, this whole exchange started after you responded to others first to argue against their points. You brought up the topic of objectivity in order to try and bolster your argument and undermine mine. You keep asking for references, examples, and evidence, which when posted, you cut out of your replies and then declare that you’ve proved it wrong while also complaining that my posts are too long for you.
If you disagree but think the interpretations are valid, why not just agree to disagree? Why all the effort to not just state you disagree, but also try to show how the interpretations are actually invalid?
Your argument is that even the Hollywood Native trope isn’t an example of racist caricature. You seem to be arguing that even if it is, a racist caricatures can’t be racist unless the people using them intentionally set out to inflict some kind of harm. And that because Blizzard has no intention to harm, their use of such racist caricatures cannot be criticized and no argument can ever be made against their continued use as part of WoW’s worldbuilding.
Racism can be racism no matter the intent. In fact, most actual racism is couched in the idea that it’s actually done with good intentions or merely out of ignorance, especially these days in the US.
Nothing about being “dedicated to creating the most epic entertainment experiences…ever.” means Blizzard products can’t ever include racist tropes or narratives. I don’t think Blizzard has being sexist as a mission statement either, but that doesn’t mean that their products can’t include sexist tropes or narratives that further sexist ideas. I don’t think Blizzard has being pro/anti-colonial as a mission statement, but plenty of pro/anti-colonial narratives find their way into their products.
Blizzard does a lot of stuff that’s not in keeping with “creating the most epic entertainment experiences ever,” because they’re people and aren’t perfect. And achieving said goal is impossible if one refuses to engage or critique said created experiences.
First you claim Blizzard use of these tropes is an example of them not really putting that much thought into it. That their use of real world resources and only drawing on the surface elements. Now you claim that the whole time, they really dug in there for deeper references in an effort to legitimatize their use of said tropes.
If sacrifices were indeed a one off situation involving the sacrificing of demons, some vague implications, and then not brought up again, as it is in Night Elf lore, you’d have more of a point. But the focus on sacrifices wasn’t used in conjunction with calling Night Elves dark, violent, and cruel for doing it, especially when facing them off against their foes.
Blizzard does this with Trolls along with, intertwined references to Haitian Vodou. They flat out use the terms in a context unique to the faith, and even use the names of the most popular Lwa like Bwonsamdi (Baron Samedi) and Damballah. The only things they really took from Mesoamerican practices were the human sacrifices and feathered serpent imagery, which are about the only thing most people know about their religion and pretty much the only thing that ever gets focused on in media portrayals.
Regarding real world Haitian Vodou; the Guede are most definitely not evil. They’re the collective spirits of the dead, and their leaders watch over the dead. They can definitely be rowdy and rude, but not malicious or spiteful and definitely not evil. Neither is Ti Jean evil. He is a passionate child-like spirit who embodies fire -not just it’s destructive properties- but also its restorative and divinatory properties. Like fire, he is dangerous and even destructive, but not evil. And he doesn’t call on people to commit atrocities or perform human sacrifice.
And while we’re talking about people taking the worst possible interpretation of faiths….
Similarly, Jesus’ “sacrifice to end all sacrifices’’ didn’t actually end the practice of martyrdom in Chrstianisty. If anything, it emboldened them to die in the name of the religion as the religion grew. And then there’s the technical practice of cannibalism via the belief in transubstantiation continues. Indeed, the belief that
For the record, I’m not encouraging that we actually interpret any given religion or deity in the worst possible light so I can use it fodder for a fantasy race by twisting it to make it focus. I’m just pointing out that the historical foundations exist to do so if one did want to bend things like that and then try to hide behind, “It’s not a racist trope! It’s based on historical accuracy!” one certainly could.
I wouldn’t advise Blizzard to do actually this with the Light in relation to the Abrahamic faiths. I wouldn’t advise them to do it with any Pagan faiths either. I think that’d be a messed up way to treat those religions, especially ones that already suffer from misplaced stigma and a history ugly tropes based on such stereotypes. And that’s why I don’t think it does them any good doing it to Vodou/Voodoo and Mesoamerican faiths as a whole.
The original Troll/Night Elf conflict was back during the Kaldorei empire days of Kaldorei expansion.
But the Shatterspear are another interesting case, as Blizzard retconned their existence because they needed some more Night Elf antagonists in Dark Shore. They’re basically there to be auxiliaries to Garrosh’s campaign against the Night Elves. And only pop back in later, when they attack with Night Elves alongside Sylvanas. Blizzard just up and invented a new tribe of Trolls just to have their contribution story begin and end with them siding with the bad warchiefs and attacking Night Elves.
And yeah, even the Horde gets in the Troll bashing too. They are, afterall, the ones with the most control of the areas right outside Zul’aman and Zul’gurub. Blizzard also pits the Horde Quillboar and Centaurs, in a similar fashion. They really play up how nasty Centaur are, with the flies effects and all.
I’m not saying it’s racist because I’m trying to take down Blizzard. I say that’s racist in the same way I would point out racist elements in any other fictional work. It’s nothing that can’t be addressed. Nothing that can’t be improved upon. The folks at Blizzard aren’t villains.
Just pointing out an example of using racist tropes in their world building, especially when they’ve shown they’re more than capable of handling the material better, ala Zandalar in BfA. Blizzard can do better, it has to be acknowledged where they messed up and be willing to continue working on it. I’ll even say it again: Blizzard’s rather ahead of the curve compared to most portrayals of Vodou/Voodoo I’ve seen in fantasy games.
And that’s the problem. We never see anything about the Sisterhood, and that is the cultural core of the Modern Day Night Elves.
The Highborne, Druids, and Illidari are external. The Highborne and Illidari specifically, are not representative of the modern Kaldorei at all.
While most modern Night Elves no longer widely practice magic -although some do- the Kaldorei Empire and the War of the Ancients are part of their living history. A good chunk of them, including all the principal characters in the franchise were alive and present. They were even key players in it. Before Illidan was a Demon Hunter he was Malfurion’s Brother, his rival for Tyrande’s affections, and member of the Moon Guard. Illidan himself is not just a Kaldorei related to the other two Kaldorei leaders, but also and a major figure in Kaldorei in his own right. The past of a people full of ageless individuals is still its past, especially when it’s visited as often for story as it is with the Night Elves.
Blizzard should definitely show more stuff about modern Night Elf religion, but that doesn’t mean the Night Elves’ past doesn’t count as Night Elf lore.
You also cut out the part of the quote that mentions… “and also spread its borders” as well s the part where, “Azshara expanded her dominion.” And the part of the text that mentions how, “On every occasion, the Trolls buckled before the devastating magics wielded by the Night Elves.”
Just accept that Blizzard wrote the Kaldorei were an expansionist empire and they used violence to help expand it, but Blizzard also wants to make Night Elves more sympathetic in the conflict, so they wrote the Trolls as being dark savages who are unreasonably aggressive and tried to downplay what the Night Elves actually did.
WoW has done this before when they want to have a playable race wiping/driving out . It’s how they try to make us not feel bad about the Kul Tirans wiping out the Drust. Or how they justify all these quests to kill Quillboar/Kobolds/Murlocs by the dozens without a moment to ponder over the futility of war, the cycle of violence, or a bit of sympathy. It’s what they do to justify us killing Ice, Forest, Jungle, and Sand Trolls. That is when they bother to give a reason why.
No, you just said I was wrong. People would know what we’re talking about if you hadn’t cut it out.
I never said that Turalyon and Illidan were now super best friends. Just that he got over his initial reaction to seeing Illidan kill Xe’ra, which he did. People would know that if you hadn’t cut that part out.
[quote]
80% of Gnomes died in the genocide of Gnomergon. It’s also stated in the WoW game manual. Along with 90% of High/Blood Elves when the Scourge attacked Quel’thalas. These aren’t made up and unsupported percentages.
Your statement that the War of Thorns/Burning of Teldrassil it was the most significant genocide since the scourging of Lordaeron is not supported by any percentages. And it’s contradicted by several actual numbers.
You wouldn’t happen to have actual quotes, links, references, or anything more than vague unsupported claims, would you?
Hello 900 post topic…
All I have to contribute after skipping around reading posts is…
I mostly blame the narrative writing the Horde as two different things. One thing the Tauren completely belong in and what the Horde was established and sold to the players as, the other is the thing they say the Horde isn’t, but are determined to keep focusing on anyway.
I am not ignoring that claim, the claim is just baseless. She goes there to stop the Wormwing from desecrating the sacred shrines of her God. You are once again assuming motive, of which you have no evidence for.
Again, you understand that the forums have a feature in which quotes can be expanded upon? Also a feature that allows people to jump up to the original post of the quote?
I am not ignoring anything. I just don’t want my posts to be over crowded. The only reason I quote anything at all is to provide people the context of what I am replying too, and if they want to expand the quote, or jump to the OP, the forums have a built-in feature that lets them do that.
If I was trying to take you out of context, I just wouldn’t quote you at all.
Those “Snippy replies” are just refutes to your claims. You have a real issue with assuming motive, because you seem to think all of my responses are intentionally malevolent. I disagree with your headcanon, and I think you are trying to offer up your headcanon as objective truth, and I think you are misrepresenting your data to achieve this. I am not on some crusade to drown out conversation and gatekeep certain ideas. I have mentioned several times that your interpretation of the lore is valid, just not something we can say is 100% objectively true. Which is how Blizzard writes their stories, it is by design.
So how about you take a step back, take a breath, and realize the assumption that I am some anti-truth, internet armchair super villain is really not what is going on, and it’s pretty silly that you think so. I just disagree with you, that’s it.
Of course I do. I am going to defend my position so I can rationalize my position. I rarely change my mind right there on the spot, but some debates have given me certain perspectives that have lead to me adjusting or changing my perspective slowly over time.
For example, I used to be a Belf fan (Less so now), and I probably would have defended them before defending the Amani. Probably something along the lines of “The Amani were allied with the Old Horde” or “The Amani never tried diplomacy” and “Even Thall hates the Amani.” or some such things.
And I have had those discussions before, and over time, I have done a 180 on that position. I am not a big fan of Trolls in general, but I admit that Quel’thalas was wrongly taken from the Amani by the High Elves, and the High Elves essentially weaponizing the infant-civilization of Humans to turn the tide of that war is devious, but also a really cool bit of history, imo.
So yea, of course I will argue my point, and I would fully expect you to criticize my claims the same way I am criticizing yours, and I would fully expect you to knock down any claims of objective truth that I make without substantial evidence.
Because I believe disagreement can be a catalyst for personal growth and the sophistication of ideas.
No, that is not my claim at all. There is a difference, when you have a racist caricature of an ethnic group as a representative of that ethnic group in the narrative, versus qualities of that caricature appearing in the characterization of a race (in this case, a species) that doesn’t exist in the real world.
Trolls are inspired by African/Mesoamerican cultures. They are not, themselves, members of any African or Mesoamerican ethnic group. They are not meant to be African or Mesoamerican representation. They are their own, unique thing.
I understand racism can be a facet of ignorance, rather than a facet of hate, and can be one or the other and even both.
You are circling away from my point, which was, again, your issue with presenting headcanon as objective truth. Also, your tendency to attribute motive, which you did when you said “It is an intentional human fabrication” as if to say Blizzard was racist in their intent. Which you cannot say by any definitive margin.
Again, the point of debate is to rationalize your position. Here, you are abandoning your original claim of racist intent, and circling around with a human error argument. Which reveals to me that you have a predisposition that Blizzard is racist, but you have yet to actually rationalize how. It’s good that you are trying to work that out, as long as you are aware of that predisposition giving you a bias toward a conclusion that might not actually be true.
I am not making that claim, I was just pointing out the faults in your claims. False statements about Vodou, making specific and narrowed assumptions about narrative inspiration specifically to support your claims, while ignoring the nuance that illegitmizes said claims. I can’t say if it is willful dishonesty or born purely from bias, but I need to call you out on it.
Well, the Trolls who are called Dark, Violent and Cruel for it are sects of Trolls doing it in the name of malevolent loa. It is hardly the depiction of trolls as a whole, in fact, it is the minority of Trolls.
Well, this is certainly not true. Baron Kriminel is a Murderer and master of those who Murder, and he is prayed to specifically for vengeful reasons. Guede in general are loud, rude and crass, and tent to possess people during services, and do all kinds of questionable things that violates their bodily autonomy. I understand evil is subjective to a degree, but at least we can say Baron Kriminel at least is malevolent.
Jean Ti sets houses on fire, and the possessions of his devotees are notoriously violent. These aren’t negative interpretations, these are just standard qualities associated with these figures.
I am not saying Vodou is evil by any means. Every faith has negative aspects, and most, if not all, polytheist faiths have malevolent entities. Even Christianity has Satan and Judas and Cain. I am not critiquing the faith, I am just saying there are malevolent entities present in these faiths, in which people can do horrible things in their name.
Well, we have the Scarlet Crusade, which one can say is representative of the worse aspects of Christianity. Yet, I think we would be hard pressed to find any Christian offended by it for that reason. Any Christian who is is likely some bible belt bible thumper who already hate WoW because it has magic and demons.
It’s not a racist trope to say that a religion has the potential to be negative. Especially when there are clear examples of positive devotees of that faith. Like the Darkspear.
I am a practicing Pagan, so I know what it’s like seeing my faith demonized (literally). It doesn’t bother me. My faith is for the strong and healthy , who aren’t going to get all bent our of shape over what some ignorant Christians have to say.
That annoyed me too. Cata was really annoying because that’s really when Blizz made everything about the faction conflict, and less about making a rich and interesting world. I wish more of my friends played Classic.
I think the Centaur seem really neat. Kinda bummed that they are just zone fodder. Would have liked to see them be a real threat on Kalimdor for the Horde and Night Elves to contend with. Their lore is interesting too, it’s like something straight out of mythology and I dig that.
Yeah, I get that. I just disagree that it’s racist. I think it’s bad world building, most defiantly. I think it’s a bad narrative. The fact that everything between Classic and now is like… What? A decade? And we have just checked off all these potentially rich races, cultures and villains like items on a shopping list, is just really upsetting when they could have been really neat additions to the world, and used for a much more enriching and engaging experience.
Racist though? I can see how you may come to that conclusion, but I just don’t think so. I don’t look at Trolls and think “This is African/Mesoamerican representation” I don’t look at Night Elves and say “This is European Pagan and Shintoism representation” either. I like seeing the inspiration, but it’s hardly an accurate portrayal of the things I believe. I like the similarities between Elune and the Triple Goddess and Hecate, but that’s not who she is, nor is she meant to be that.
It doesn’t matter. The Highborn Empire is the antithesis to modern day Night Elf culture. Culture is where representation matters. History that in no way is reflective of modern Night Elves isn’t lore for modern night elves.
Not necessarily fight. Meant to achieve a certain objective. As said in the text, their objective was exploration. To discover what lies beyond Kaldorei borders. No mention of conquest is made, and the description of their return describes Flora and Fauna, not plundered goods, or battle scars.
And you also cut out the part where Trolls were said to be openly hostile. Azshara was expanding her borders through exploration, and was disinterested in conquest. Another thing you cut out when you present your “evidence”. Which is why I was pointing out those specific things to you.
Gotta love how you cut things out, then when I include them, you say I cut things out…
I am not going to accept something of which there is no evidence.
I don’t cut things out. I quote you so people can expand it to it’s full context if they life, which is a feature provided by forums. You literally don’t need to quote everything and make your posts stupidly long. The forums have features that helps condense things.
And I did prove your wrong. You provided evidence, and it was evidence your misrepresented.
It’s easy to just say “You cut it out” over and over, when I literally didn’t. Much easier to do that than to actually address the argument, because you have no means of addressing it, because you are wrong, again.
And what is the percentage of Night Elves lost in War of Thorns?
No it isn’t. First, Quel’thalas was all part of the Scourging of Lordaeron. Second, you don’t have any numbers to cross reference. Your data doesn’t refute anything.
War Crimes, Tyrande notices wrinkles on her face, and how she has aged more in the last couple years, than she had in the previous thousand. It even goes on to say that she is aging at a faster rate than what would be natural.
We see a susceptibility to disease from a number of quests, but one notable one is the girl in Astranaar (Who the Horde can kill in War of Thorns btw). But a more compelling example is Jarrod’s wife. Who’s disease is attributed to their loss of the Aspects Blessings.
Now, post-cata, Teldrassil was blessed by Ysera and Alextraza, returning Strength and Vitality to the Night Elves. So it was likely not an issue at that time, but after BfA, unless we are to assume the Blessings somehow persist, we can assume it is once again become an issue.
Akiyass, The Religion in both the real world and in Wow Baron Samedi/Bwomsamedi is from is called Voodoo, with the powerful spirits that are worshipped being called Loa. How much more on the nose could you get.
[/quote]
Thisalee’s motive is plainly stated by Thisalee herself.
She says that her superior was too nice to the Harpies before. She that now has a reason to drive the Harpies from Mt Hyjal. She flat out states that not all creatures of the air were created equal. They couldn’t be any more on the nose with her being racist against Harpies and using the fact that she’s using their attacking of the shrine as a pretext.
Wait, so if I have this correct: if a fictional work with fictional characters takes lots of obvious influence from tropes, historical beats, and other elements attributed to a real world peoples, but does not claim to actually be a 1 for 1 representation of those specific people, nobody can claim it contains racism or sexism, or ageism or any other such elements? Not unless expressly stated to be such by the creator?
You’ve been the one trying to claim Blizzard can’t possibly be using racist tropes without intent. Again, this is obvious when you reread my original post without it being clipped and robbed of context.
I didn’t claim my critique as objective truth. You claimed my premise was wrong, and then proceeded to argue against it, and later accused me of trying to present it as objective truth, while also claiming you “proved” it wrong in an attempt to publicly discredit/dismiss it.
My claim -which you cut out- was that Quetzalcouatal didn’t approve of human sacrifice, but Blizzard was so lazy in their research and coding that they just went Aztec = feathered serpents and human sacrifice, and put it on Trolls. You countered with the idea that Blizzard actually did their research and was actually referencing the much lesser known Kukulka.
You have that backwards. Trolls that don’t get described as a whole as dark, violent, and cruel or who don’t engage in living sacrifices and cannibalism are the exception to the rule. The Sand Trolls, Ice Trolls, Forest Trolls, Jungle Trolls, and to a lesser degree Zandalari (prior to BfA, where they changed that approach some) have all been described as such.
Even the Darkspear, which are called out specifically as exceptions in Warcraft Chronicle Volume 3, page as…
…Get turned right back around and described as savage in the opening of the Darkspear cinematic. And Vol’jin’s savagery, terrible smelling breath, filthy camp, and bad diction are highlighted when they were never ever alluded to before. And these are supposed to be the “good ones”.
First off, all Lwa possess people during services. That’s like a cornerstone of Hatian Vodou. The whole purpose of a Vodou service (or fete) is to invite various Lwa to possess people. That you think this is an unwanted violation of bodily autonomy illustrates a fundamental lack of understanding of the faith.
But moving on to Baron Kriminal, he is indeed the first ”murderer”. The important context here is that many Lwa were “born” in Haiti, and Baron Kriminal is one of them. He is Lwa who saw the injustices of slavery of Hispanola- and is willing to fight back, violently, even illegally- like when a slave kills his slavemaster and gets hung for it. This is why Baron Kriminel is also a Lwa of justice, called on to act against people who’ve wronged others or escaped justice- and he doesn’t just kill. He is also the Lwa called upon to protect victims of violence. He has influence over matters of death that occur via killing, and he is willing to help kill if asked to and can be convinced, but he does not demand people kill. And when he possesses people, he does not kill other people. He is not malevolent.
And again, Jean Ti is not evil. He sets things on fire as he is the Lwa of fire. He also warms and cleanses things with fire. And grants visions through fire. He embodies not only fire’s ability to destroy, but also it’s beneficial properties. Fire is potentially dangerous, but not evil. Jean Ti is potentially dangerous, but not evil.
Now if you’re going to walkback claims that every religion has evil deities whose followers commit atrocities and engage in human sacrifice in their name, for the much vaguer and broader claim that every faith has “negative aspects,” then sure. I totally agree with that.
But the framing is indeed very important.
If there were multiple instances in the narrative Humans going into into a war, and the Scarlet Crusade was trotted out to paint humans as a whole as intolerant, violent, self-righteous losers in a war of extermination/displacement against the Orc/Gnoll/Murloc/Trolls who are described much more positively, then you’d basically have what WoW does to Trolls. As pointed out, the portrayal of trolls as a whole as dark savages is more the rule, than the exception.
And hey, if you’re okay with your faith being demonized and have no experienced no negative consequences as a result, that’s good for you. That doesn’t mean that said demonization doesn’t exist or that other people aren’t affected by it, and if someone wants to point it out, their claims of religious discrimination are not wrong/invalid just because you choose to endure it in silence. And frankly, if said people in your community spoke out -which they do- and you leapt to explain to them how they’re wrong and shouldn’t say that and that everything is fine, I wouldn’t blame them for seeing you as an obstacle to more fair and equitable treatment.
The Kaldorei Empire was the political party to which Tyrande, Malfurion, Illidan, and a large number of other Kaldorei lived. The events that occurred during the existence of the Kaldorei Empire, including the War of the Ancients, were events they lived through and participated in. It is no longer their present, but it is their past, and their stories regularly include them coming back and exploring this time in their lives. You cannot tell these prominent Kalodrei characters’ stories or even the story of the Kaldorei as a whole without mentioning their experiences as citizens of the Kaldorei Empire or the War of the Ancients. Well you can, but it’ be cutting out a huge chunk of their lore as has been explored in WoW. Same with the Highbrone, who continue to number among the Kaldorei and have recently risen to a more respectable position. They are part of the Kaldorei story and Kaldorei lore too.
I did not cut out the part where Trolls were said to be openly hostile. I mentioned that they were. Here’s my original quote in its entirety. Bolded for emphasis.
You not only cut that part out, you’re denying that you cut it out, and now you’re trying to accuse me of cutting things out.
My original quote was…
Nowhere did I suggest Turalyon and Illidan were super best friends. Just that he got over it.
80-90% (or more) of the Night Elf population did not die in the War of Thorns as we have no numbers. Unless there is a source claiming more than that did, you have absolutely no source backing up your original claims that Night Elves as a playable race were the victims of the most significant genocide since the Scourging of Lordaeron.
The fact that you’re now arguing that that it can’t be proven wrong, because it was founded on nonexistent numbers to begin with, shows just how spurious the original claim was.
Also, the Scourge invasion of Quel’thalas happened later, in Quel’thalas. Not in Lordaeron- unless we’re using outdated terms that WoW retconned at launch. It’s like referring to Stormwind as Azeroth.
A page, a quote, or something other than, “It happened in War Crimes,” would be very much appreciated regarding Tyrande. And what’s the name of this mysterious girl in Astranaar? Would you happen to have any actual quotes, links, or references to elaborate on these claims?
I did find Jarod’s Wife. She just died of a disease, but wasn’t described as being any more/less prone to sickness than anyone else.
What you’re describing is not any kind of special susceptibility to disease/aging, but rather the simple fact that they’re, as a race, no longer immune to it, and after some several decades, people are actually dying of natural causes for the first time ever. That’s something all the playable races have to contend with, not something that makes Night Elves more susceptible than others to death.
Also, nothing you’ve mentioned involves the race suffering from fertility problems.
Exactly, and that’s protecting the sacred shrines that are under assault by Wormwing harpies, who were actively serving the Black Dragonflight.
She isn’t racist against Harpies, she just hate those specific harpies because they were actively desecrating shrines.
I mean, you can make the claim, but it would be a baseless claim. It’s not real people, it’s a fantasy race that doesn’t exist in the real world. Bwonsamdei isn’t anymore racist than Odyn, or Loken, or Ra. Maybe you think those are racist too, but you are less vocal about them because they are more attributed to people with less melanin in their skin. (Even though Ra is clearly a steal from Egyptian Mythology. But that didn’t suit your predisposition, so you left that part out and said all the Keppers were Norse).
I literally quoted the exact verbiage you used. “Intentional human fabrication” is your own words. So you are backtracking again.
I understand that wasn’t the premise of your original post, but it was something you said later in the discussion. Which seems to be an issue you have with not being consistent with your ideas.
If you are not outright repeating the same refuted arguments over and over, you are changing your stance completely. Which leads me to believe you haven’t actually stopped and thought this through.
Again, I am not making any claims. Not sure why you seem to think I am. I am seeing all the things you are saying, and I don’t interpret it as racist. It’s not suppose to be a one for one representation. Trolls are not people of color. Bwonsamdei is not Baron Samdei. Odyn is not Odin. Loken is not Loki, and so forth.
It’s not racist to take something and reimagine it into something else. Hakkar doesn’t Villainize Quetzacouatal because Hakkar is not Quetzacouatal.
I disagreed with your claim and stated why I thought that way. But before that, you were already attacking me with baseless accusations about my moral character and integrity.
All because, why? Because I don’t like trolls quite as much as you? Because we have different standards with what qualifies as racist? I’ll point out that I haven’t defended anything, I have never said anything has been good. All I have done is argued your point that Blizzard uses racist tropes to glorify Imperialism, and writes their story favorable to Night Elves. You are the one who resorts to personal attacks, and attribute my motives to be far more malicious than they actually are. You want to call me disingenuous, but the egg is all over your face.
Yes, I understand that. I also understand that such things don’t really exist, or at least that’s my belief. So these are just people acting out in fits of superstation. But with the assumption that these are real possessions, acting out violently, and inflicting self harm upon the possessed, and even inflicting harm on those around, is a violation of bodily autonomy, invited or not.
Again, that is the assumption of real supernaturalism, and not just ritualistic tradition.
In what world doesn’t that not make him malevolent? lol
A Lwa that one prays to in order to inflict harm on others. Are you telling me there is absolutely no possibility of that being a catalyst for malicious ends? I have told you, I am a practicing pagan, there are gods in my pantheon that are questionable. That’s all part of it, failing to recognize the danger of any entity is a recipe for disaster. I understand all that and I am not criticizing the faith. Saying there is no moral nuance in this, saying there is no capacity for evil, is just dishonest. Not only that, but disrespectful to the faith itself.
It would be like saying Loki isn’t evil. Which, sure, is not a complete truth. Loki is a lot of things, and he has been a force for good. But saying he is not evil understates the deeds of his Kingsman in Ragnarok. The dark, destructive winter that must come to pass before the sun’s rebirth. It’s a fundamental part of the belief system, and the same is true for Vodou.
I am not sure how that is a walkback since that is literally what I have been saying since the beginning. Not just that religions have negative aspects, but those negative aspects are fundamental to their belief system.
That’s even true for Christianity. Satan, Judas, Cain, Abraham, they are all vital to the Christian concept of inherent sin. Satan and Abraham in particular, because their sin is righteous. Satan is the thin line between justice and vengeance. Abraham is the promise of deliverance for blind obedience. (Never really liked Christianity. It always comes back to obedience. “Judgment only belongs to God”)
In what way? The Darkspear are virtuous Trolls. The Shatterspear were as well before Cata. The Amani didn’t do anything when we raided them. Neither did the Farakki. Even the Drakkari were given the excuse of desperation to kill their Loa. Literally the only seemingly irredeemable trolls were the Atal’ai who were extremist’s, and several troll tribes united to stop them.
In no way at all are the Trolls depicted, as a whole, to be what you describe. The Scarlet Crusade on the other hand, is a band of irredeemable racists, and there are implications that they are supported secretly by the Church of the Holy Light.
That’s not true. Some of my family only reluctantly speak to me because they think I am some kind of devil worshiper. I have been openly called a racist in public because I wore a Thor’s Hammer around my neck (I do not believe in racial purity. Odinism is not exclusive to any race of people. I would accept anyone of any ethnic background as a brother or sister of the faith). I had a friend panic and refuse to come to my house because they learned I had a Ouija Board (Which I actually laughed about because it has nothing to do with what I believe, and it was just a fun game I played when I was a kid). So, just because I don’t get bent out of shape over ignorant people, don’t assume that I have been unaffected.
It’s not about suffering in silence, it’s a matter of human ignorance that you are not going to change. There are plenty of resources available to people who want to learn, most do not out of fear, and that is by design by the religious intuitions as well as their social network. I also don’t think trying to change public opinion by only depicting these faiths in the most positive light possible is the best thing to do either. Odinism has a lot of positive aspects, but at the end of the day, it is a faith that glorifies personal struggle and adversity. Odin actively tries to make your life more difficult. It’s the whole Sacrificing an eye for cosmic knowledge motif. If we only show Odin as the Santa Clause-like figure who visits your home and captivates you with fantastical tales, and embodies the warmth of comradery and the hearthy pleasures of home, then its not really doing the faith any more proper justice.
Again… It doesn’t matter. The Highborn Empire is the antithesis to modern day Night Elf culture. Culture is where representation matters. History that in no way is reflective of modern Night Elves isn’t lore for modern night elves.
Again, you are attributing motive. You are saying “Blizzard wrote it this way for this reason”
When the only thing you can say definitively is “Blizzard wrote it this way”
But that is not enough for you, because Night Elves have to be bad, and trolls have to be good, in your eyes.
I didn’t cut it out lol. I literally quote just a few lines so people can expand it. It’s not me cutting it out. When they expand it, it’s highlighted, so they can go right to the source and see exactly what was said. If I am trying to be dishonest, I am doing a bad job at it.
But he didn’t get over it. Again, that is claim you can’t make. Case in point, it is clear Yerl didn’t get over it, since she is warring with the Iron Horde again.
We have no numbers, so we can’t say how many of them died. What we do know is Teldrassil was their largest population center, and the Horde had to fight their way through several population centers just to get there. Furthermore, percentages don’t give us any idea of the actual numbers. If gnomes were already low population, then it wouldn’t take that much death to achieve those numbers. So another thing we don’t know. What we do know is that is was a Genocide meant to narratively mirror Arthas’ invasion of Quel’thalas, and ended with the major Kaldorei population centers wiped out.
You got me there. I was imprecise with my language. I was talking about the rise of the Scourge in general. So, basically WC3.
I am not at home, but when I am, I can hunt it down. It’s a pretty distinct part, it’s when she is in Darnassus, and having self doubts, and for some reason Blizzard wanted to give her some complex about being compared to Azshara.
I will say these posts already take 1 to 2 hours for me to post. Which is really annoying. So, I am trying to get through it as quickly as possible. It’s not me trying to be, as you might accuse, disingenuous.
The Child in Astranaar is Relara Whitemoon, her illness is of a magical nature, not something she would get naturally. Also, Jarrod’s Wife is said to get sick specifically due to complications of rapid ageing.
That is the case post-Cata. But not Pre-cata. And it has yet to be seen if War of Thorns would create those problems again.
Yes, you have shared a number of times that you are a black man, so I have not mistaken you as a white man, however it is also not only white people who live vicariously through cultures they have no first hand experience of. We do indeed have posters who grew out in various other countries that are not the U.S. and their points of view would have their own reflections and mindsets that they would perhaps like to share for themselves.
Beyond Bwonsamdi - a loa which the Zandalari have largely shunned by his own words - and the loose use of Vodou words, do the Trolls actually have that similar a religion to Haitian Vodou? Your word it as heavily drawn from, but from what I can tell of Blizzard’s understanding of the religion, I’d imagine it is lightly inspired by at best. Aesthetic trappings that do not actually reflect the religion any more than the Light actually properly represents Christianity without the concepts of Jesus dying for people’s sins.
Quite obviously as well, the Aztecs did not believe their gods to be evil, either, for your curious implication thereof.
Blizzard doesn’t? The Night Elves perform sacrifices of people. Posters have especially bringing up Tyrande throwing an Orc’s head into a Moonwell lately, and people are also obviously fond of the Satyr meat sacrifices in Desolace. The Vrykul also engage in ritualistic sacrifice, often having the player character participate in as well, throughout their various appearances. As did Magni sacrifice himself to protect Ironforge from the Cataclysm - though obviously Magni is faring better now.
Is it that Blizzard is omitting things, or is it that you intentionally look away from things that do not fit the message you are trying to put forward?
And that will remain the case. If a group of Aztec descended people came together to commit to war against Mexico City it would stand that Mexico would oppose them. If what you are asking for is a sect of Amani that would like to try get get their lands back from the Blood Elves through non-war means, that is another matter. But then they might as well not really be the Amani, or at least would be as distinctively separated as most of the Thunder Bluff Tauren and the Grimtotem are.
Again you look away from the things in game that represents exactly what you claim is missing, as the Screlet Crusade/Onslaught/Brotherhood and their inquisitors are the presentation of the Spanish and other European aggressors throughout much of the content of WoW.
Displacement that is also headcanon as much as your descriptions of genocide are headcanon. There is no description of the Night Elves displacing the Trolls before all the map became purple. Nor did Chronicle say that Azshara displaced the Trolls off their land even after she continued expanding her empire.
You further prove my point. If Malfurion and Illidan and those who lived in Val’sharah did not follow the Highborne’s ways, and in fact we know of the worship and proximity of Wild Gods there at in Val’sharah such as Ashamane, Malorne, and Aviana, it goes to show even more than the non-Highborne Night Elves were not part of the expansionism you accuse then of. Especially considering we saw Cenarius himself would share words with his followers in Val’sharah itself.
Tauren had every reason to join the Alliance because Tauren and Night Elves are close to each other, aka Moonglade Wardens. So Night Elves could have introduced the Tauren easily.
She disliked them before the shrines and doesn’t feel the least bit bad about now having a reason to drive them away. You keep ignoring the part where she says that too.
People don’t just mention how they see other races as unequal or point out how they “now” have a reason to do X when it’s irrelevant to the point.
Don’t forget….
Nobody’s questioned your moral integrity. Only pointed out the history of your posting habits and arguments.
Plenty have disagreed with me in this thread. Amadis for example, often disagrees with me on this topic in other threads, but also quotes people in full and has a long running history of citing sources and direct quotes. So even though they don’t agree with me, I (and others) don’t make the same observations about their posting habits.
I used the term “international human fabrication to describe the process of writing fiction. Because fiction is created by humans and does not spontaneously arise from the ether.
I stated that what Blizzard wrote does have intent in the sense that all fiction is made intentionally. There are times when someone writes a story intending for it to be well received, only to find out it isn’t. When people write a story intending to tell a story about the horrors of war, and instead up writing a narrative that kind of does the opposite.
You yourself have claimed Blizzard writers of using sexism in the War of the Ancients trilogy.
Of course they’re not literally those figures.
Fiction can’t be properly contextualized based purely on only what’s literally in the text/on the screen. There’s theming, mood, tropes, allegory, references, framing, parody, and all kinds of other elements that tie fictional elements to each other and reality and help tell a story. You can see them. You’ve acknowledged them. You’ve noticed sexism in WoW, even though these are all fictional characters and not actual real world men/women. You try to use theming to tie Arthas/Sylvanas to play up the tragedy of Teldrassil, even though Arthas is not literally Sylvanas.
And again, the issue is not simply making references, but how combining those references and tropes repeatedly in certain ways can result in a very specific narrative that’s pretty much a narrative mirror of real world racist narratives.
And Hakkar is very clearly built on the popular pop culture perception of Precolumbian religion, which pretty largely begins and ends with “Quetzalcoatl” and “human sacrifice.”
I and others also have spoken up about non-Trolls. I’ve referenced Quilboar, Drust, and Centaur. It’s even been pointed out by Drakyn that this is part of a trend in fantasy in general.
It’s not something that happens to just Trolls. Trolls are simply the most high profile example in WoW.
There’s still some misconceptions here.
Even as a practitioner of Vodou, I don’t actually believe that a supernatural entity has occupied the body of a person either. It’s really a communal ecstatic experience. A possessed person is not let loose to run around doing whatever in the greater community long term. The presence of the specific Lwa is called as part of a Vodou service in which they are called, and if the Lwa decides to appear in the form of a possession, that person stays in the presence of the congregation and interacts with them until the possession has ended. My best comparison for people who’ve never actually seen it is to liken it to seeing someone being taken by the Holy Ghost and speaking in tongues during a Christian church service.
So if someone actually does get hurt during a possession, it’s not the intended result. Something’s gone very wrong. If someone burns themselves playing with fire, it’s not the fire to blame. Fire doesn’t make people burn things. People don’t burn things in fire’s name. Fire happens. People use fire. People have to deal with the potential dangers of fire, but fire is not evil. That’s why Baron Kriminel and Jean Ti are part of the Petro/Petwo group of Lwa, often described as “hot” and “firery”.
You then bring up Loki, and then say describing him as evil would be an untruth.
This is why your original statement, which claimed all religions had evil deities and that’s it’s sensible for a religion based on Vodou to have evil spirits that invite their followers to commit atrocities and human sacrifices in their name has morphed into much more vague and far less villainizing observation that, “all religions have negative aspects”.
The Shatterspear did not exist anywhere in lore prior to Cataclysm, and the first thing they do in the narrative is side with Garrosh and attack the Night Elves. They didn’t exist in WoW until it was time for Blizzard to invent a new tribe to serve as an antagonist for Night Elves.
The Forest, Jungle, Sand, and Drakkari are repeatedly described as savage and cruel when we’re asked to kill them -even in situations where they haven’t actually done anything to us yet- because WoW so repeatedly used Trolls as being savage dark evil and unreasonably aggressive -who have already struck first- that there’s no need to question it or play the situation for the sad state of affairs of it is.
Even the Darkspear, which are called out specifically as exceptions in Warcraft Chronicle Volume 3, page as…
…Get turned right back around and described as savage in the opening of the Darkspear cinematic. And Vol’jin’s savagery, terrible smelling breath, filthy camp, and bad diction are highlighted when they were never ever alluded to before. And these are supposed to be the “good ones”.
First off, I’m sorry people in your family/friends distance themselves from you and others have tried to publicly villainize, because they’re largely operating off of mischaracterizations of your faith. These are examples of social discrimination against people based on faith. Whether you’re willing to admit to it or get bent out of shape about it or not.
And peoples’ ignorance regarding a topic can change. The process by which pre-Christian Pagan beliefs went from something people in the US were regularly demonized and legally killed over to something less dire wasn’t just because people “didn’t get bent out of shape about it” and eventually it just stopped. It’s the result of people pushing to actively combat that ignorance, part of which includes supporting narratives about non-Christian faiths that are more nuanced/less villainous in nature, including fictionalized versions.
And surely you understand that there is a vast gulf between portraying Odin as something like Santa Clause and conflating him with Satan.
It’s the Kaldorei Empire, like the Kaldorei people, not the “Highborn Empire”. For Tyrande, Malfurion, and Illidan’s past, along with a good chunk of Night Elves *is part of their life story. That’s why whenever we go back and explore the history of the Kaldorei Empire, the War of the Ancients, Tyrande, Malfurion, Illidan, and several other modern Night Elf characters constantly show up or get referenced.
Also, modern Night Elves have continued to have Highborn living among them for some ten thousand years and since the Cataclysm, modern Night Elves have come to accept arcane traditions again.
I don’t think Night Elves have to generally be framed as being bad. I don’t think even that Trolls have to generally be framed as being good. There’s a lot of gray area in there that WoW could stand to explore in a more equitable fashion.
I don’t think Blizzard wrote Trolls that way with the intention of offending. I think Blizzard wrote Trolls that way because they wanted an exotic enemy they didn’t want players to feel bad about seeing wiped out so they went with some classic tropes without really thinking about it. And they’ve done it so much with Trolls, coupled with all the racial coding and use of outright racist tropes they use for Trolls (and other races) that they have created this recurring narrative theme in WoW. It’s not anything that can’t be fixed. But not if they ignore it’s happening.
That they seem to have tried a different tract with Zandalari in BfA and ended up with a very popular new race should make the benefits of going in a different direction with Trolls obvious. Bwonsamdi is the closest WoW’s ever come to a faithful recreation of any Loa (even beating out most pop culture versions) and hey, he’s been a very well received new character. Although I don’t even think Blizzard did that on purpose either, as they turned around and are using a snake Loa named Daballah as the Loa of treachery, when the actual snake Lwa named Damballah is anything but treacherous.
If Blizzard’s plan with WoW is not to think too much about it and throw whatever to the wall to see what sticks; then we can do the thinking for them, tell them what sticks/what doesn’t, and why.
Yrel doesn’t war with the Horde until after the Lightmother made her go crazy. She still even refers to Grommash as an old friend, even though they had no personal history together prior to him trying to exterminate her people. She did get over her initial reaction to all the terrible stuff he did. And Turalyon got over his initial reactions to Illidan.
What numbers do you have that support the claim that Teldrassil was the largest population center? And without numbers of other population centers and their losses, how can we know how many Night Elves there even were, let alone what percentage of Night Elves were killed?
And now you’re using narrative mirroring to try and draw comparisons between and Arthas/Sylvanas. Where before you argued that there’s no relationship between Hakkar and Quetzalcouatal because they’re two different entities, now you argue one between Arthas and and Sylvanas, despite them being two different entities.
That still leaves Gnomes. And as long as we can make claims without having to cite any actual numbers; also Mulgore Tauren and Darkspear Trolls.
I understand this discussion covers a lot of points. This is part of why I limit my responses to at most, once a day and don’t expect instant replies. Plenty of time to find the stuff to back up ones’ claims.
So while we wait for a reference for Tyrande and reference to rapid aging making Jarod’s wife’s rapid aging making her more vulnerable to disease….
I also looked up Raela Whitemoon, and more specifically, the questline given to cure her, and at no point does it suggest her disease is a complication of rapid aging.
And you still haven’t shown any evidence of unique fertility issues faced by the Night Elves either.
I don’t live vicariously through other cultures. I’m merely pointing out the trend in WoW, which is not unique to WoW or Trolls in WoW. I invite them to comment too in this thread the want, but it’s not like they haven’t commented on the topic on this board and others.
And the Church of the Light is totally WoW’s spin on Christianity. But they don’t paint it with an overall negative brush. Imagine if they decided that the Scarlet Crusade was the norm of its practitioners, rather than the exception, started referring to Anduin using terms the same terms RL Christians used to refer to Jesus, and started using the names of prominent Catholic Saints with associations- or making them evil instead.
I and Akiyass already discussed the brief references to Elune accepting sacrifices from her follower’s enemies- as well as how Vrykul are villainized.
The thing is that Night Elves engaging in this aren’t depicted as disgusting, dark, evil, savages against whom genocide/displacement are framed as the only reasonable actions a hero’s expected to take. And people don’t argue that they should because it’s historically accurate. They’re also not going to have us meet Tyrande in Shadowlands and then tell us how bad her breath smells, how filthy her settlement is, or point out the savagery in her smile.
I’d totally expect the people of Mexico City to oppose them.
What I wouldn’t expect would be for someone to frame it as, “The cruel savage Natives of Mexico have drawn upon the blood magic of their dark gods and descended upon Mexico City as revenge for Cortez and you, the heroes, must save the day by collecting their heads. Also, there’s some ‘good’ natives who will lend their savagery to your cause against the others.”
I’m not actually asking for Blizzard to write a story in which the Amani wipe out Silvermoon. I don’t think I’ve ever asked that. Just if that we’re going to involve this tragic and complicated situation that is the Troll genocide/displacement, that it be properly treated as a tragic and complicated situation.
And funny that you should mention the Grimtotem- as they are not representative of any pattern with the Tauren as the whole, and are capable of engaging with others in non-war means. We even come to their defense in Legion.
The Scarlet Crusade/Onslaught/Brotherhood are presented as acting in opposition to the Church of the Light/Stormwind/Humanity. They are not treated as representative of tendencies within humanity/the church.
The dark savagery of the Aztecs and trolls are not treated as being the traits of some small splinter group that’s an exception to the rule. These traits are repeatedly treated as just part of just being a Troll, to the point where even the good Trolls are often literally described as savages.
Val’sharah is not far from Surumar, and it’s in/around Surumar where Malfurion, Illidan, and Tyrande actually grew up. And Suramar is built on territory that was previously held by the Forest Trolls. You can see both in the map as part of the Kaldorei Empire and Surumar’s specific location right there, on land previously held by the Amani.
So the map losing all the territory that’s part of the Zandalari/Gurubashi/Amani empires with it being replaced with Night Elf territory and the Troll populations either disappearing or being reduced to scattered tribes that are not part of any empire is just a coincidence? And that it had nothing to do with the fact that “On every occasion, the Trolls buckled before the devastating magics wielded by the Night Elves.” or Azshara expanding her dominion?
Highborne and Loborn Night Elves participated in the expansion of the Empire and settled the lands. They lived as citizens of the same Kaldorei Empire. Highborne and Lowborn Night Elves fought on both sides during the War of the Ancients. Highborne and Lowborn went to what is now Kalimdor and eventually Northern Kalimdor, where many individuals who were literal citizens of the now fallen Kaldorei empire -including all the current racial leaders- continued to live.
I am not ignoring it, it’s just a baseless claim. She hates them for assaulting the shrine. She hates them for aligning with the Black Dragonflight. She hates them because they went into a frenzy. She didn’t hate them because they were Harpies.
Which is blatantly false. You know full well they only reason you bring this up is because discrediting my moral character saves you from having to contend with my arguments. You know full well, that I don’t omit anything. I quote the parts of your posts specifically so people can reference back to the context.
I either have to believe that you are too dense to navigate the built-in features of the forums. Or you are actively trying to slander me in the forums for the sake of your own argument. Which is it?
In the context of intent. Now you are backtracking, acting like that wasn’t the context of what you said.
And in the context that Blizzard was intentionally showing racist caricatures of certain ethnic groups, and glorifying European colonialism. Now you are backtracking.
Sure, but here is the problem. You are making claims of intent, and you are making assumptions about the influence to justify those claims of intent. You equivocation of Hakker and Quezalcoutal before any other plumed serpent is a strong case in point. The claim that Blizzard MUST just be ignorantly attributing pre-Columbian faiths with human sacrifice, even though human sacrifice really did play a big role in those faiths. Kukulkan is a plumed serpent from southern Mesoamerican faith/folklore, in which humans really were sacrificed in his name.
So, who really is the ignorant one here? Blizzard, who included human sacrifice in the faiths of their fictional world that drew inspiration from real faiths that also included human sacrifice in their rituals and traditions? Or you, who has the predisposition that people with a little bit more melanin in their skin couldn’t possibly have a nuanced and morally questionable aspects of their pre-colonial history?
Baselessly. In MMO fantasy, sure. Because devs need enemies for the players. Here is the thing though, these is a fine line between playing a game from the perspective of those loyal to those major super powers (Horde and Alliance) who villainize the denizens of the world not apart of those super powers. And full blown glorification of colonialism, like you claim.
What do you think vague means? It’s actually far more specific. I am talking about specific deities in polytheistic faiths. That’s not a “negative aspect” that’s an entity that has a predisposition for something morally nuanced, questionable, or even evil.
We see in Bastion’s Afterlives that there is a thin line between vengeance and justice. I have met people who agree with Uther’s decision to cast Arthas into the Maw, and I have met people who do not agree. That line seems to be, more or less, what Baron Kriminel represents, and if he were a real entity that we could have a conversation with, you don’t think there is the slightest chance that his own definition of justice could be skewed? Especially given the context that he is the first murderer to be sentenced to death? Given the context that an aspect of his worship is to burn chickens alive to “appeal to his cruel nature”?
Come on.
They did. They were Friendly to Horde and Neutral to Alliance. There wasn’t much lore about them, but they did exist. You could see them from a hippogryph flying between Moonglade and Darkshore.
By quest givers. It’s not Blizzard objectively saying that. These are testimonies from characters within the world. We don’t know why they think that, or what reasons were or weren’t given.
Well, then trolls be like that. But not because they are coded as a certain ethnic group. It’s because there was already a precedent set of Trolls acting that way from the previous RTS games.
That’s only from the perspective of the Alliance.
I am not so sure. I think over time, access to information has just become to easy, that people are less ignorant in general. I don’t think anyone’s mind has been changed by having a finger pointed in their face and being called prejudice.
First, for people to learn, they need a willingness to learn. Those open to conversation can have their minds changed, but the ones open to conversation are also not the problem. It’s those who are unwilling to have a conversation who are. Those minds are not going to be changed. It has been the access of information that has exposed their children to these other faiths. It has been the influences these faiths have had in film, TV and games.
Someone watches Marvel’s Thor, and maybe reads some Norse Mythology later. Someone plays World of Warcraft and maybe does a google search for Voodoo after playing a Troll.
It’s the Highborne empire, because modern day Kaldorei are nothing like they were 10,000 years ago.
False. Highborne had to abandon their titles and noble status, as well as abandon their arcane practice, or be put to death.
Look, we actually don’t disagree on as much as it might seem. We can both agree that more faithful representations of anything would be good. Actually, faith that crosses Voodoo with pre-Columbian faith and folklore could be really cool if it could be done in a way that is faithful and comprehensive, where the themes seamlessly mesh together.
Where we disagree is specifically on the term racism as it applies to Blizzard and Warcraft, and the portrayal/influence of these fantasy races. As well as your claim of how it applies to night elves.
So rather than having these long as hell responses, how about we narrow this down? Because I am kind of sick of spending an hour replying to you every morning.
Not necessarily. Yrel is trying to convert Grommash in that instance. We can’t assume what she says and how she says it as a real reflection to her feelings. Neither “got over” anything.
Considering that the Horde had to butcher their way through most of Kaldorei territory just to get there, considering it was the Capital, and considering Tyrande claims it to be the end of the Kaldorei race. I think assuming the genocide was significant.
Because Hakkar being a plumed serpent doesn’t make him a mirror of Quetzalcouatal. There are several plumed serpents in several people’s folklore. They are different entities, and aside from a very common aesthetic, we have no reason to believe they are a mirror of each other.
All such races had low populations to begin with. Every flu season is a genocide to those people.
He disease is magical in nature, connected to the loss of Alextraza’s blessing of health and vitality.
It’s not rocket science. The Night Elves had a blessing of health and vitality, then the didn’t.
I know generally where it is. Just haven’t had time to pull it up. Commenting here to say I will find it.
Tamanii…I’m going to be hella surprised if Akiyass gives you a reference. She’s Johny on the spot to respond to you but can’t be bothered to reference anything. I’ve been following these posts for a while and most of her arguments can be summarized as “Nuh Uh!” and gate keeping Night Elf lore, without anything substantial to back it up of course.
I will say I started leveling a Night Elf mage in Aug and the fact that she’s angry they even exist (because the only Night Elf culture that counts is what happened in the last 10K years and not the Kaldorei Empire) at all warms the cockles of my heart.
I’ve always felt that the Taurens relationship with the Horde is more like being trapped in an abusive relationship. Every time the Horde does something questionable its like “Come back, I’ll change. I promise.”
I honestly always saw it as the opposite; that the Tauren were something like what the orcs and Darkspears wanted to be. Ferocity without atrocity and all that. Granted, if orcs and trolls wanted to be peaceful and shamanistic, at some point they would have gone and done that. But if you lose the tauren, you lose the notion that their manner of life is a Good Thing.
Not only do they use the Scarlets for this, more and more they are using the Naaru to show the sinister sides of the Light.
Aren’t they? Zul’s forces and those he backs aren’t really any different from the Scarlets, especially given how it previously was the Zandalari who had us adventuring to police Trolls who were performing acts that were considered not representative of how Trolls should be.
You’ll want to check your maps again:
If that mountain range to the west of Suramar is Highmountain, and Val’sharah is to the west of that, then Val’sharah was never Forest Troll land.
We’ve already covered this:
All of the ones that were resident with the Kal’dorei at the time, participated in the events of the mana storm, and all of them were exiled.
The few (and that is VERY few) Highborne the live with the Kal’dorei now had been isolated in Eldre’thelas since the days of the Sundering and took no part in those events.
To be fair and to Tamanii’s point…those trolls went SOMEWHERE. I highly doubt that when Azshara and her empire took over most of the land, she let the trolls stay around, giving their territorial habbits. Just because Chronicles doesn’t spell it out that they were displaced, make no mistake. They were displaced.
Lot of posters on here, mostly alliance do that all the time. If it’s not spelled out for them, as if they’re incapable of reading between the lines than the standard answer seems to be Nuh Uh! Didn’t happen!
Bwom tries to stop Nathanos by bringing up visions of his cousin but it is very clear that Bwom is in very real danger. Nathos and the Dark Rangers absolutely could have killed him. It is explicitly stated that if Talanji doesn’t find a way to stop Nathanos she and Bwom will die.
