Why don't Tauren join the Alliance?

Lore Story Forum
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This isn’t waterboarding. This is a magical means of interrogation that is not possible in the real world. Irl, torture is ineffective. There is no ends justifying the means. What Alleria did had timely results, so the ends did justify the means.

Maybe, but that is because Blizzard has historically written the Horde as an evil faction, and doing unnecessary, morally backwards things without rhyme or reason. Hell, isn’t that what most Horde players complain about? But as soon as an Alliance poster says it, all the Horde players want to rush to the defense.

I don’t even like the Alliance, I made a whole post about it earlier in the thread.

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It’s worse. It’s violating the sanctity and safety of a person’s mind, and tormenting them with it.

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408

And getting a lead on one of the worst war criminals in Azeroth’s history, who is still at large and an existential threat to Azeroth.

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is no excuse.

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410

It is possible there’s a teacup behind the moon. We’ve been to the moon. That doesn’t mean there’s one there. I wouldn’t say it is farfetched in Warcraft for there to be a planet of twenty-four foot tall cats that only eat mana. Doesn’t that’s in the lore.

Aesthas was blackmailed in the moment more than a true traitor. And she didn’t even have evidence of his involvement anyway. It was entirely speculative. And even the organization being untrustworthy doesn’t justify the later acts.

Some, not lots. Still doesn’t address the large number of people not fighting back that were trying to run away from something they had no involvement in and given a death sentence for it.

IRL police don’t have magic, lol. You can bet if cops could magically non-lethally freeze people irl with ease, they wouldn’t be shooting them. There’d be no need.

Because abusing the rights and killing people on such shoddy evidence is bad in general, not to mention not worth the benefit. It resulted in the imprisonment and death of a lot of Sunreavers that were entirely innocent. As well as a side effect of pushing away the Blood Elves that were in talks to rejoin the Alliance.

Again, we’re talking about the ones specifically trying to flee and avoiding addressing it. I would say most, but at the very least some were just trying to leave.

That would be helping Japan.

Not obvious to me when you’re hand waving so many. You can’t know who is and isn’t a criminal before the fact, hence why innocent until proven guilty is a thing. Yet you’re cool with imprisonment, torture, seizure of assets, and killing on mere suspicion.

The fact is we know most of these Sunreavers were law abiding citizens. Yet you continually deny them a lot of pretty basic rights.

No they weren’t. The first quest after Jaina imprisons Aethas has ‘NONE are to escape’. One of the other quests is specifically trying to stop someone from escaping.

Because most of them aren’t traitors, they are law abiding citizens that deserve basic rights. Because the evidence against the Sunreavers was basically nothing and shouldn’t have prompted such wide reaching harm.

I don’t know why you say ‘flight risk’ when you’re also trying to claim they were allowed to leave at first. Were they allowed to leave or were they a flight risk?

Still ignoring numerous NPCs specifically not fighting back and trying to leave.

You’re the one calling it 100% justified, so yes. You stand by the principle or not. You can like bad things in a video for being not real, but that doesn’t mean you can call them good/justified without supporting the principle.

Again, you place convenience over rights. They aren’t that important to you. Just don’t pretend otherwise. Basically ‘I’m fine removing rights if I think it is important’. Which is literally the mindset of a facist.

Appeal to common sense is not lore. Especially when the quest text has an npc saying they ‘forfeited this’.

I thought you were a moral objectivist, unless I’m thinking of someone else.

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411

Of course it is. Traumatize one, save millions. It’s the cold calculous of war. Saurfang’s goal during the War of Thorns was to seize a civilian population by force, and use them as leverage against the Alliance. To do so, he would of had to violate the sanctity and safety of innocent Kaldorei lives, subjecting them to the torment of lost loved ones and living under occupation.

What Alleria has done is no different, except it is smaller scale and it is higher stakes.

I recommend not putting people into boxes. I believe there is good and evil. I also believe sometimes an evil action can serve a good purpose.

To me, it’s more about understanding the weight of your actions, rather than making excuses for it.

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I thought you literally said it, not that I ascribed it. But if you didn’t you didn’t.

Do you think people should sometimes do evil actions? Because that’s the semantic distinction (not using that disparagingly) that I don’t track. To me something bad is something you shouldn’t do and good is something you should do, so maybe you use the words differently than me.

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Well, the current conversation is a perfect example then. I think saying “What Alleria did was bad” is totally fair. However, I think saying “It shouldn’t have been done” is totally wrong.

There was too much at stake. I suppose, to put it simply, do you think something is “bad” when it’s ends ultimately have a positive affect?

Edit: When I say “What Alleria did was bad” is a totally fair statement. That doesn’t mean I agree with the statement. I think that orc was at worst, a traitor, or at best, a coward.

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I’ll answer your question, but I think I’m still unsure on how you are defining these things. What do you consider bad to mean if it isn’t something that shouldn’t be done?

To me, I’m more rules utilitarian, so it can get tricky judging the ultimately positive outcome. Because if torture is given the pass then it might lead up to innocents being tortured and other impositions in the name of the greater good. I don’t know if I agree that torture there was strictly necessary to save a greater amount for how it impacts other things.

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They aren’t traumatizing one.

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I think most people who are mentally healthy have an innate ability to discern right from wrong. You see this even in animals, who have capacity for compassion, and have rudimentary understandings of fairness.

I think when people get it twisted is when they start making excuses for their misdeeds. An example that I am sure everyone is guilty of is when a cashier gives you incorrect change. I am willing to bet most people here who has experienced this, simply kept the money. They likely made justifications like “It was their mistakes, I am not responsible” or “Well, I am not driving all the way back to return it.” or “No one will miss this petty cash.”

Ultimately though, it is stealing. This is why there are moral codes that people may subscribe too as a moral tool. Such as Religion or an ideal.

I am a practicing Odinist, so I look there when I am faced with adversity of any kind. Quotes from the Havamal say “Act out against evil wherever you find it and let your enemies not know peace.”, “Repay betrayal with treachery” and “When there is war, call it war.”

So it is as I said earlier. I do not pretend to be a hero. I do not pretend to be morally upstanding. I strive to be a loyal friend, Brutally honest, and a virtuous monster.

This is true. Morally requires a fair deal of discipline. If you are going to do something ambiguous, understand why you are doing it, and do not pretend it is anything else. You can say what Alleria did was wrong if you want, but you cannot say she did it for malicious reasons, nor say she would do it under less oppressive circumstances. Was it necessary? I think so. In hindsight, I think anything else would have taken too long. Of course, we rarely know how something is going to play out, in lies human error.

I think if Alleria had done it not because of the circumstances, but because it was an orc. If she had done what she did flippantly, with hatred in her heart, without any greater, virtuous purpose to fulfill, then we could say it was something she “Shouldn’t have done”

That is not what we see though.

Yes they are.

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That kid seemed pretty traumatized.

Do you think they’ve never done this before? Do you think they will never do this again?

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418

I am sure Saurfang’s invasion of Northern Kalimdor traumatized plenty of children.

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Probably, if night elf children actually exist.

This, though.

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Good way to deflect any acknowledgement that Saurfang might not have been a good guy.

To demons maybe. Will they ever do it again? I imagine it will depend on the importance of the information.

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In front of children?

:cactus:

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Oh, that doesn’t make him not a good guy. Children will be scared by war. Good thing Saurfang actively moved to spare parental units who were not acting like soldiers.

But again, the immortal race has no children models to the best of my knowledge.

Then we circle back:

Because you set the importance of the information:

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Sorry but it’s just so obvious that relying on, “Just use mind reading magic to see if there’s more traitors” is such a copout because you need to do that to literally every Sunreaver in which case, the ones who are traitors will just up and leave in advance in which case you have to imprison them all anyway.

He’s a traitor, the degree to how much of a traitor he is, is moot.

The point isn’t they don’t have magic, the point is you don’t try and arrest someone trying to kill you by trying to subdue them because no competent police force trains people to fight at a disadvantage.

Shoddy evidence would be if bad things happened and Jaina had a hunch it was the Sunreavers, the fact the Sunreavers betrayed Dalaran twice was proven.

Also there seems to be some confusion about arresting someone and sentencing someone. The Sunreavers were all arrested because during times of War when the other side is trying to obliterate you, arresting them so they are momentarily subdued is fine.

What would have been wrong is if Jaina sentenced them all to death even if they surrendered without first proving they were traitors, but arresting is fine.

Jaina had to weigh her options, she knew the Sunreavers were a compromised group and knew that not taking immediate action, especially with her knowledge of the consequences of not taking action during the same expansion, was just not worth the risk.

That would be helping the entire world due to one side who clearly has no restraints wanting a WMD. Again, being neutral only means, “We won’t take action until one side becomes a threat to us even if they don’t intend it”.

Let’s say the Divine Bell wasn’t being held in Darnassus, but say in a titan facility and Jaina helped ward it to? Would that still be ‘aiding’ the Alliance?

Innocent until proven guilty is a thing when it comes to sentencing, not arresting lol, if it was it’d cause so many problems.

Imprisonment and seizure of assets in situations like in MOP yes. Torture has nothing to do with the Purge and mere suspicion no, but let’s face facts, in MOP Horde are basically a terrorist group with possible traitors working for it through a compromised group(Sunreavers).

If they are going to resist arrest then they have to suffer the consequences.

From Wowpedia:

Accusing him of treachery (an accusation Aethas claimed was false), Jaina ordered him to take his people and leave the city. Unwilling to accept her ultimatum, Aethas proclaimed that Dalaran was the home of his people, too; as Jaina herself had said, many of the Sunreavers had called Dalaran home for over two thousand years. Resolved, Jaina simply stated that she would have to remove them by force. She took Aethas captive and teleported out of the fray.

There isn’t really a RL situation comparable to what happened in MOP.

Placing the safety and future livelyhood of one’s own faction and people over the rights of potential traitors to those who wish to obliterate you, yes.

Well there’s no proof they did or didn’t get their property returned so it’s moot.

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If we are drawing the line of evil at eyeline of children, I think the invasion and occupation of someone’s home traumatized more than one child.

Yet, many civilians took up arms to defend their home… So, ultimately, it doesn’t matter… Saurfang made many Nelf orphans during War of Thorns.

There is one in Moonglade. But hey, whatever helps you sleep at night.

Alright… Traumatize two, save millions.

Is that better? lol

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Yes. They took up the role of soldier. They knew what they were doing.

How many?

If that helps you sleep at night.
They aren’t going to stop at two. They didn’t stop at two already. The Forsaken, the child, and the orc.