Why did you delete the lol?
That’s weird.
Gotta remove or add something when quoting the last post or if edits the quote out. I typically try not to add stuff. Just a quirk of the forums.
Ah. that makes sense.
It’s been that way since we got these new forums and Blizzard still hasn’t fixed it.
I’m willing to doubt any of them were trained in actual interrogation techniques but it still doesn’t hurt to try and ask.
Or it simply could be what it’s made out to be, things within the Void (Old Gods in particular) whispering to mortals, getting them to do things, and driving them mad. I can’t buy into this “whispering to themselves” angle.
We do know that things live within the void. We do know Void things like to whisper to people (again, Old Gods).
The simple solution is most often the right one.
It doesn’t make it any less ugly or dishonorable.
Who like to whisper to people.
That has a natural tendency to consume and corrupt things that are around it, and the beings who best know how to use it are the Void Lords and Old Gods. The things that dwell there inevitably follow their will.
It might have. It doesn’t make it less ugly.
Disagree.
Luckily for all of us, seeing as the choice to not keep these oaths is what eventually led to Sylvanas being exposed for what she was. And formation of the Horde Council so the people wouldn’t be oathsworn to one Warchief anymore.
As for the civilians in question, they didn’t feel the need to share information with members of the Alliance nor do I see any reason why they had to. Maybe if someone from the Horde had questioned them things might have turned out differently but…we’ll never know.
Disagree.
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How is that what it’s made out to be? If anything, the lore more supports the opposite. It’s the Dark Mirrior of the Light. Which is a power not granted to mortals, but manifests from emotions of extreme faith and conviction. It would make sense that the Void would be the dark mirror of the same way. Elevate the thoughts and emotions that we would normally keep suppressed.
Not saying that is what it is definitively, but I think that interpretation is truer to the lore that has been presented.
We know things live within the Light too, but it so far, it doesn’t speak to its Wielders unless one such entity is present to do so.
So I don’t see any evidence that Alleria is hearing the voices of an outside force. I believe it’s her own, Void empowered, supernatural insights.
And that is the simpler solution.
Less ugly? No. Less dishonorable? I don’t think it’s dishonorable at all.
Now, just for the record. I don’t advocate torture irl. It’s too ineffective to be functional. What we are seeing in WoW is different. Alleria gets results. She has insights that would otherwise be unknowable. So in this case, it is serving a function that safeguards innocent lives. That is honorable.
But all such minions at this time are dead on Azeroth.
Just like the Light. But people use that to great effectiveness in the pursuits of noble goals.
Something that is ugly doesn’t mean something is immoral or evil.
You have every right to be wrong.
They had the moral responsibility to help bring Sylvanas to justice. They are traitors and cowards. And in this situation, so are you.
Okay, you don’t have the right to be wrong then. Lol.
I didn’t say the Alliance did nothing wrong, just that Dalaran is an example of the Alliance actually doing nothing wrong, at least in terms of morals, maybe the execution could have been better.
I’m pretty sure lorewise they were, since it’s common knowledge that the ingame purge of Dalaran was bugged and Jaina killed people she wasn’t meant to.
The Alliance was at war with the Horde during the purge and during this time, Blood Elves had twice already abused the neutrality of the city to give Horde an advantage they weren’t meant to have. Screw evidence to arrest them, you can’t compare arresting someone with murdering them.
Sure you can, because even the worst case scenario of what happened in Purge of Dalaran doesn’t compare to what the Horde did during MOP. Sort of like, “What the Allies did during ww2 might have been bad but they had to do it, but what the Axis did was bad and without reason” but replace Allies with Alliance, Axis with Horde and ww2 with basically every war they’ve had.
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Just because it’s the dark mirror doesn’t mean that it works in the same manner as the Light does. Besides, the Void operates on negative emotions like fear and doubt and despair while the Light operates on more positive emotions.
If what you say is true then it would mean it’s Aleria’s own desperation and fear at work to give her insight to the Void. In this case, working to point out a mother for her to torture knowing someone would talk to stop it.
Either way there’s little doubt in my mind that something within the void was quite happy someone was using it to cause more fear and suffering.
I see no evidence suggesting that the whispers were her own Void insights. Besides that if there are Void insights then are there not Light insights? Where was Turalyon’s input on the matter?
No. I’m sorry, but this smells more like your headcanon than anything.
You’d be wrong.
Do yourself a favor and go read the book. You’ll see what there’s so much doubt cast on this by not only Turalyon and Jaina but it just causes a bunch of Alliance soldiers to cringe at seeing it.
Turalyon himself expresses the idea that “The Void often Lies” when Alleria informs him that her Void sense was pointing to the orc mother (further evidence that your previous ideas about “void driven insight” are false) and Alleria responds they have to do something and this is the only option left to them.
Oh, and this particular chapter starts with Alleria being freaked out by a dream she had of her and Sylvanas.
They’re scared. They’re desperate. The feel they have no options. Emotions that give the Void strength.
Source? Remember that Alleria caused a Void Rift to pop open just by getting too close to the Sunwell. Who knows what’s lurking in the shadows around her?
In this case, yes it does.
Which can also be used for immoral purposes. You yourself mentioned Xe’ra’s attempt to force Lightforging onto Illidan.
In this case, Turalyon used Light Chains to hold down his wife’s torture victims.
If Uther had seen this in action, he would have stripped Turalyon of his paladinhood.
You keep repeating that but you’re not doing anything to make it any more true.
I’m out to protect Horde lives. That includes those harmed by Alliance scum who are quick to resort to dishonorable tactics for no other reason than “It’s more convenient than doing things the right way” or because they’re scared and desperate. If they were knowingly harboring a Dark Ranger then they should be subjected to Horde justice, not torment at the hands of Alliance.
The only reason I don’t think Alleria and Turalyon should have their heads put on spikes is because their methods got results that saved Zandalar from Nathanos and his dark rangers. Thus, Horde lives were in the end saved. That doesn’t mean their tactics are any less dishonorable and they should be making reparations to the people they tortured.
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And those are all comparatively recent developments. All glaringly notable changes in the way things were historically that upended the status quo (and that were sorted out once the armies stopped being withheld by Katrana’s manipulations in Stormwind.) Through most of human and dwarf history, they’ve kept those sorts of threats stamped down and localized to very specific areas away from the towns and cities, with legitimate regional threats arising from them being rare enough to be historically notable rather than the norm.
Meanwhile the Kalimdor Horde is still dealing with basically having what amounts to a quillboar nation parked inside of what it considers its borders, complete with their own capital down in Razorfen. Consequently the Horde has far less of a handle on the Barrens, Mulgore and Durotar than Stormwind has on Elwynn or Ironforge has on Dun Morogh.
Which isn’t some sort of indictment of the Horde; they haven’t been living there for hundreds of years paving roads and building garrisons all the while, so it makes sense that the natives are still far more organized and entrenched at this point than, say, the gnolls or frostmane trolls.
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Maybe maybe not. He did after all kick Tirion out of the order for being honorable and decent to Eltrigg.
People have this mistaken idea that Warcraft Paladins operate along the same alignment straitjacket as their counterparts in D&D.
They weren’t quick, they spent hours doing it the long way then realises how pointless it was because they were being stonewalled.
Try more effective
Why do you think the Horde get to call dibs on bringing Sylvanas to justice when Sylvanas did more damage to the Alliance? It’s not their fault the Alliance is doing more to locate Sylvanas.
HAha good joke, reparations for haboring a fugitive who is associated with a war criminal and threat to all existence.
And don’t give me that, “They didn’t know” crap because we’re past that.
I eagerly await all the threads of Horde players condemning Allari because she roughed up a few demons in the pursuit of information.
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Stonewalling isn’t a crime in modern society, just so you’re aware. Any country where it is a crime is called a tyranny.
I guess the Alliance is a tyranny now?
You can’t say it was “because they’re Horde” either since they did it to a human as well.
And more barbaric.
If you want the benefits you have to reap the smelly parts too. No cherry picking.
I’m not talking about Sylvanas I’m talking about the civilians who were harboring a Dark Ranger. Pay attention.
And Alliance don’t have exclusive claims on Sylvanas either.
Trying and not succeeding you mean. I recognize their efforts yielded intel which lead to Nathanos being exposed in Zandalar, but who was it who defeated him in the actual fight and sent him back to Sylvanas as a failure again?
Reparations for committing what most in the Alliance would call “War Crimes” if the Horde did it to any Alliance citizen, no matter what the situation was.
Demon Lives Matter
…That was a joke, just incase you’re wondering.
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They weren’t punishing her for not helping them, they merely brute forced their way into her mind as a last resort. Again, if in RL it was possible to forcibly enter someone’s head to retrieve information that is 100% true every country would do it.
Well sorry the Alliance don’t just go home with their tails between their legs just because hours of diplomacy didn’t work when it concerns the capture of the literal most dangerous being on the planet.
If this was Horde extracting information from Alliance they would have killed the son and everyone else, tortured the mother even if she was willing to confess then kill her anyway for S*&ts and giggles.
What smelly parts? Losing the coveted, “Good guy” badge that is like a lightning rod for genocidal acts against you?
I know, it’s first come first serve. And you’ve gotta be joking with the whole, “Only Horde races can interrogate Horde races” thing. That’s like saying if a country suffers a terror attack from a foreign agent we have to send them back to their country of origin to have them question him.
Ding Ding Ding, there we go, you admit the Alliances forces are responsible for finding Nathanos.
Here’s the thing, if Tyrande Whisperwind found out that Sylvanas was hiding out in some small Alliance bandit camp because she gave them all like 1mil gold each(cause she doesnt need it anymore) and Horde forces tortured information out of them after they stonewalled them, I don’t think she would consider it a warcrime.
Wouldn’t surprise me if she hurt Lothraxion.
It isn’t. Not only in real life, but this is a world where mind control and mind reading exist!
Paladins in D&D currently have rather robust alignments, both in choice and following it.
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Oh boy, you guys are still going at it.
I don’t get why you’re dragging real-life political laws into this. Does it really matter? There are morally ambiguous things in life that you can’t really decide based on laws alone.
I haven’t read the new book. But from your conversation it seems like the authors intended the torture thing to make you stop and think. By putting a mom with a small child in there.
Some might think it’s okay, because “last resort” or “greater good”, others might not.
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They wouldn’t touch it if it involved using some dark magic that causes pain and suffering and feeds off people’s fear, anxiety, and despair.
Well…I’m sure someone would use it, but no one with anything resembling a conscience.
Normally they do though. This isn’t exactly the norm for Alliance.
Maybe once upon a time, but not anymore, incase you haven’t been paying attention to recent events.
I’m glad you’re willing to stop being good guys for the benefit of being more aggressive. Be careful though. Those lower pits of morally bereft are dark, smelly, and cold.
Except…no terrorists were interrogated. Civilians, who’s only “crime” was not speaking.
No, I admit they found evidence that there was dark ranger activity in Zandalar. Their first inclenation was to think “Sylvanas is hiding in Zandalar and the horde betrayed us!” Which they were wrong about, obviously. The fact that it led to Nathanos’s exposure was just a fortunate stroke of good luck.
She would be wrong.
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Has she ever been around him? I don’t remember her showing up past the first leg of Azsuna questing.
It was more of a joke at the idea of comparing these random torture victims to demons when we also have good demons.
I admit I get too engrossed in these Alliance Horde morality debates for my own good.
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