Virtue signalling is such a useless term in that it is just a roundabout way to call someone dishonest and can be applied to most any argument. Even saying someone is virtue signalling can be called out as virtue signalling.
13 Likes
Most who use these powers for noble ends are very disciplined with it as well. Take Magister Umbric for example, he expresses belief that excessive decadence can lead to corruption so they try to practice moderation as much as they can. Commendable, considering the Void is a power of unending hunger.
I don’t recall saying he kicked them out because the Void is immoral, I presented the example of Alleria’s presence at the Sunwell proved to be dangerous so which led him to expel them all because they were a danger to the Sunwell. So I guess we can agree on this.
Walk a mile in their shoes, then get back to me on that. Oh wait, you can’t because they’re imaginary characters in a book. It’s easy for a reader to point and say “This Character is a Coward, that Character is a Hero”.
In the end it’s just a disagreement on which is which.
On this we can agree. It’s still going to be tough for Turalyon when he has to choose between his wife and his patron Light entity.
Yes there were actually.
Here, a quote from the book on what I mean:
“We could question the others,” Turalyon scrambled to say. “Or…”
“Or take the information we need,” Alleria replied. “Take it now.”
He glanced at her askew again. “Is this who we have become?”
Under different circumstances, under a different moon, his words might have wounded her, but Alleria shook them off without hesitation.
For starters, they didn’t even try to question the others. They simply went straight to “Let’s Torture Orc Mom and get what we need”
As to Alleria’s convictions, maybe she did adopt this “At All Costs” attitude. I wonder if it was before or after she began courting the Void. For Turalyon though. He knew they were treading in immoral territory, but he went along with it anyway. Is it because he felt they had no other choice, or was he simply just going along with it because Alleria said so?
Bring it.
It’s just another form of ad hominem.
3 Likes
I mean, if you don’t understand what it means, then sure.
But no, that’s not correct. Virtue signaling is rather specific. It’s when someone presents themselves as morally superior to someone else, usually as a means of attributing some kind of authority of expertise to themselves to support a position.
It’s pure narcissism. It’s as if one is saying “I am not taking anything you say seriously because I am inherently a more virtuous and morally superior being.”
I would say Alleria is pretty darn disciplined. She fought a war against the Legion for 1,000 straight years lacking numbers and supplies. She trained with Locus Walker to master and use the Void responsibly.
But you are making a moral argument against the void, and used Lor’themar’s position to verify that argument.
I have been threatened before. People have also attempted to bribe me before. So far, it hasn’t worked. So I think I have the life experience to relate.
And time was of the essence. I argue every moment wasted was the potential for millions dead. I do not see it as immoral, I see it as yet another thankless and ugly task not unlike the tasks that allow you, irl, to live the lifestyle you live, in relative safety.
Well… It’s hard to really challenge you myself because, ultimately, there is no consequences present. No matter what, both of our days will be the same regardless of the decisions we make.
And even if I could somehow impost some kind of consequence on you, I wouldn’t want to.
But just for fun, lets bring up the classic rail car exercise.
If you don’t know what that is, I am sure you have heard of it. A railcar on a track, coming up on a fork in the track. On one track is 5 people unaware of the railcar. On the other track, one person unaware of the rail care. You can do nothing, causing the railcar to collide with the group of 5. Or flip a lever, causing it to collide into one person. What do you do?
Pressing X here.
5 Likes
I think I know what it means, I usually go by these definitions.
Virtue signalling is a pejorative neologism for the conspicuous expression of moral values.
The action or practice of publicly expressing opinions or sentiments intended to demonstrate one’s good character or the moral correctness of one’s position on a particular issue.
Yes, and even pointing out virtue signalling can be a means as presenting one’s self as morally superior to that individual. That you care more about truth than moral posturing.
3 Likes
Sure.
But just to be more specific. I worked as a financial advisor and tax accounted for a while, in an office building in a kind of poor side of town. Working late in a bad neighborhood, and leaving after sundown, walking the streets in a suit and tie kind of makes you a target.
Likewise, and more often, I have had plenty of people try to bribe me to falsify financial statements. Usually to make them more attractive to investors.
So, those are the specific examples I am referring too. If you don’t believe me, well… That’s you.
I suppose that entirely depends on if said person is factual or not. Because at that point, it’s not posturing, it’s just factual.
Yeah, that’s why I just call it a roundabout way of accusing someone of being dishonest. Because any sort of position can be thrown that way. Like saying someone is posting BLM stuff just to show they are woke. Or saying that someone is calling a person a snowflake to prove to his buddies how no nonsense they are. Most any position can be claimed as just an attempt to show one’s morally better nature. We’re only ever inferencing the honesty behind them.
1 Like
It’s like we’ve been here before.
Also, LOL! Yeah being bribed to alter financial documents totally gives you insight into being intimidated and having your life on the line.
3 Likes
It is also incredibly common. Just the sheer fact that it is easier to discredit the person than it is to discredit their ideas. Especially if it’s someone who does their homework.
Well, I specifically said I have been threatened and have been attempted to be bribed… So that was a being bribed example… That wasn’t intended to be an example of me being in any danger.
But the whole walking down the street in an unsavory part of town was.
Well yeah, someone tried to mug me one time.
There was also a time back in high school, I was hanging out with a bad crowd, and some kid had his dad’s gun and he pointed it at me and my friends.
You know… things happen. I am not saying I am some bad a. I am just saying, I have had experiences.
Or it’s just a case of us having different views on what is moral and what isn’t. I don’t agree with your “By All Means” approach if other options haven’t been explored.
In the case of Orc Mom, they did have the time. Turalyon spent lots of time trying to question her by the regular means and she refused to say anything. All that time could have been spent also trying to get others to say something.
This is due to the fact that the Void whispered to Alleria that she knew something when in fact they all knew something. Literally the Void made them waste their time just on one person.
And you wonder why I think the Void is immoral.
Yeah, I wouldn’t trust Locus Walker as far as I could throw him personally, but hey, good luck with that and the Void. Again, hope things down turn out bad for Alleria and Turalyon over this.
Fine, I take that back. His motivation for kicking them out might not have been morally driven, but it was still the moral thing to do seeing as how the Void is so dangerous. As you said it’s in direct conflict with the Light of the Sunwell so trying to keep it around is irresponsible.
Good for you on keeping to your convictions. Not everyone operates on the same level and value not wanting to die over not wanting to give bad guys what they want. Does that make them “cowards”? /shrug Maybe, but nor does it make the people who force justice out of them by torture heroes.
See above comments in regards to the Void deliberately misdirecting them onto one person.
You save 5 and sacrifice the one.
Then you apologize to the family that your choice cost their loved one his or her life. I’m sure they’ll be perfectly understanding in their grief that you chose five strangers instead of the one they lost.
Even if they don’t though, you at least took the time to express condolences.
People tortured by the void can’t even get that anymore it seems. But, as you say, they should just be grateful that they even get to live, right?
2 Likes
True. It is common to express morals and also calling someone dishonest. To my understanding, virtue signalling wasn’t even originally a bad term, just a thing people do. In the same way someone might say all actions are self-serving, even helping someone, in-so-far as that might make the person feel good. But morphed somewhat to be more about not caring as well.
That’s mainly why I prefer to shy away from it, though. With little knowledge of someone, intent is hard to discuss in a meaningful manner. Whereas at least the ideas have facts. Same as when people put out the word ‘woke’ earnestly in general. Where both claims from the right in America are just calling someone fake.
1 Like
But the incidental stuff you’ve been through somehow gives you incite into what those on Azeroth have been through? 
Yeah, no.
Or, she would have spent the same amount of time multiplied for each other person.
Or the Void was just telling her the truth. And they got that information without wasting their time with all the others.
Well, you inherently distrust the void, so that makes sense. Again, using the void doesn’t make the individual immoral.
Yeah, his hand was forced. But its not really to do with the void, but rather it’s relationship with the Light, and the Blood elves dependency on the well.
I mean, I think cowardice is the ultimate sin. It’s a betrayal to yourself. A deeply rooted doubt that you are not strong enough to uphold your own virtues and weather the storm of consequences that will come with it.
I don’t have much empathy for willful cowards. I can respect an acknowledgment of personal weakness, but these people all knew something and made the choice to withhold the information, that is willful cowardice.
I do not think that is a valid interpretation.
Yeah… they were the sacrifice that saved everyone else. They even have it better, they get to live.
In this case, it gives me insight into what it might be like to have a fugitive threaten you, because I have also been threatened.
I do try to not attribute motive. However, I am a reasonable good sense of character. Usually when I make a claim, I am fairly confident.
I am a human though, so I am inherently flawed. I am sure I have made mistakes, and even virtue signaled. I do try not to, though.
With as many soldiers they had with them and only Turalyon and Alleria doing the talking or interrogating? Is it really that difficult for someone to go up and try and strike some conversation to get some info?
It was telling her a half-truth, which is still-half a lie. The mother knew something but they all did, yet it remained quiet on the rest and only focused on her. Ultimately it was the undead apothecary in the group who spilled the beans. Why didn’t the Void call him out instead?
Was it some kind of weird devious tactic that the apothecary would fold at the sight of people getting tortured? Or does something in the void that was giving Alleria whispers just delight at seeing innocents geting tormented?
I’ve had lots of experience to do so. C’Thuun, Yogg, the Sha, all their minions and just recently N’Zoth. Most often the Void has been a cancer on Azeroth. I think the Alliance trusts their new friends a little too much.
Not until they use it for immoral purposes anyway, such as this case.
Sure. Or because the Void itself is also inherently dangerous.
One can also argue that putting your loved ones in danger by betraying that information is also a form of cowardice. Dark rangers are dangerous people, especially against unarmed civilians without military training. So if a Dark Ranger comes up to someone and says, “Swear you’ll be quite about ever seeing me or I’ll find you and do horrible things to your family” then you can either refuse and die or agree and live.
On top of that, Horde take their oaths very seriously. Some can’t break them anymore than your average night elf can deliberately chop down a tree. Years of their own particular honor culture I guess. I don’t know.
I can’t explain why they chose to remain silent because they book never states why beyond “They were made to swear oaths to do so”. I still don’t think any of this or being a coward deserves mental torture by use of the void though, and nothing you can say will make me change that opinion.
As far as I’m concerned, this is a black mark on Turalyon and Alleria’s honor.
2 Likes
Someone who is trained at such things, it might be.
Perhaps he would not have spoken if he was the subject of the torture. Perhaps this was the necessary leverage needed to get results.
Why are we also assuming the void speaking is it’s own, sentient entity with its own goals? It is just as likely that the whispers are Alleria’s own, only heightened. Sort of like the Sha, they aren’t their own entity, they are the manifestations of our own, negative emotion. Perhaps this is Alleria’s super power. She has insights that would otherwise be suppressed.
I am, personally, a fan of the idea, that the Light and Shadow only expediate people along the paths they have already chosen for themselves.
I think this is the case… Due to Alleria’s certainty and the results it yielded.
These are not The Void… These are minions of the Void Lords. The void itself is a non-sentient force. This is why I believe Alleria’s whispers are merely her own thoughts. There is no entity it could be, set aside maybe the lingering essence of the fallen Naaru.
But distrusting the Void for these reasons is like distrusting the Light for the Scarlet Crusade.
Again, this isn’t an immoral purpose. This is something that could have saved millions of lives.
No, fundamentally not because of that. Fundamentally because of the Void’s relationship with the light and the elves dependency on the Sun Well.
I would agree then immediately report what I saw to someone. It’s a bluff, if my silence is so important to them, then it must be vital to their escape. If I am wrong, I will deal with it then, but I am not going to be intimidated by villains.
And that has lead to them being a fundamental threat to world peace. There is nothing honorable about keeping an oath made to a dishonorable person.
You have ever right to be wrong.
See above.
You think you know what it means to be a parent because you babysat once. Got it.
2 Likes
No, I know what it’s like to be threatened because I was threatened lol.
1 Like
Hardly.