Why don't Tauren join the Alliance?

Lore Story Forum
304

Either way, he didn’t deserve to get tortured.

The smuggler in question was a He by the way.

Are you sure you read the book?

I don’t have a chalk board with crayons so I can only make this so easy. I’ll do my best though.

Alliance: Scared of Sylvanas and want her captured.

Anduin: Tells Alleria and Turalyon to capture Sylvanas by any means necessary.

Alleria and Turalyon: Capture a group of Horde civilians.
Alleria: Hears whispers from the Void (which has entities in it like Void Walkers, Void Wraiths, and most predominantly, Void Lords) that an orc who is a mom knows something.
Orc Mom: Refuses to say anything to them.
Turalyon and Alleria: Run out of patience and decide more drastic actions are required.
Turalyon: Uses chains of light to pin Orc Mom to the ground.
Alarya: Uses magic from the Void to invade her mind and extract information.

Forsaken Apothacary: Distraught over seeing Orc Mom get tortured that they helped a dark ranger and were all made to keep a vow of silence before she left, but he gives the information up anyway to keep Orc Mom from being tortured more.

This heavily implies that the entire group knew about the Dark Ranger, but the Void singled out the mother to Alleria deliberately. I wonder why.

This is the Void we’re talking about after all.

A Male Human Smuggler who has this done to him as well.

Now we can make claims that all of this is necessary to capture Sylvanas until we’re out of breath, but entities in the Void (Walkers, Wraiths, and Void Lords again) don’t really care about that. They’re just happy to see mortals using the Void to cause harm.

This is why I say that the Void, or for those who have trouble separating meaning from literal, Void Entities, are laughing as we use their evil power to fight another evil power.

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305

I never said I did.

But from what you describe, it sounds like he did deserve it. That there was good reasoning behind the action.

Ah, yes, Ad hominem only legitimizes your position. Very good.

Well, if it works, it works. They can keep laughing. I will sleep fine knowing I have removed evil from the world.

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Given how murder-happy even some common folk are I’d have to agree.

Would you say the Horde had an obligation or responsibility to “investigate” Sylvanas?

:cactus:

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Most of the humans under Turalyon and Alleria’s command have a difficult time watching the torture of the human being carried out, which indicates it was very unpleasent. When Jaina saw it in action, she was horrified.

Right. They deserved it. Because a dark ranger either threatened them or she tipped them off to keep quiet.

Alliance isn’t looking all that snowy pure anymore.

Says the person who’s been condescending ultra-literal troll jabs? “The Void isn’t real. The void isn’t an entity either, but a force.” I’m not sure if you’re deliberatly being ultra-literal to dodge the debate or just trolling to troll, but either way, you’re being rude.

Except they let other evil in the world by giving the Void more free reign.

I hope it doesn’t come back to bite them.

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Probably, given the consideration that they had no way of knowing if Sylvanas was a traitor.

I know what you are trying to do here, so I am going to save us both some time.

Putress and Varimathras were responsible for the Wrathgate. Sylvanas’ involvement is questionable, so she needs to be looked into. The Horde is not the one on trial here, the Horde would be the one conducting the trial (If there were trials).

You see what I mean? That is the point I am making. So do not misunderstand.

I mean, that was a response to “The Void is laughing at you” which is more of a directed troll jab than me stating a blatant fact about the lore. If you are taking offense to that, that’s a -you- problem.

Source?

They deserved it because they kept quite. The methods the Dark Ranger used is irrelevant.

309

By whom? The Horde? If the Horde wasn’t responsible or accountable why should they look into it? Did Varian stop after Putress and Varimathris were dealt with and say ok all is well between us?

:cactus:

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I just told you to not misunderstand me, and here you are, trying to pull the exact thing anyway.

The Horde is not the one on trial, they are conducting the trial. Again, there is no accountability or responsibility without punishment, and the Horde is not the one being punished, Putress and Varimathras is.

Varian is a man with power acting impulsively. An irrelevant factor here.

311

Now that horde has a council you wanna come back and zug it up in org?

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I absolutely adore the amount of hand-waving you’ve done in this discussion.

:cactus:

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Bold to assume I like the council, or that’s even a reason I want to come back. The real reason is due to lack of money.

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Its not hand waving. Varian is not the Horde. Yet, he was wronged by one of it’s members and decided to seek justice on his own.

it has nothing to do with attribution of blame. You can’t blame the entire Horde for the Wrathgate.

315

Apologies, I didn’t mean You personally, I meant that the Void entities are laughing at the fears of the Alliance for letting Turalyon and Alleria use the Void magic in such grim methods as invasive mind torture.

Generally in WoW history when Void magic is used a price is paid. What that price is in this case is anyone’s guess. My guess is that it likely gives energy from the mortal world to something living in the Void thus empowering them. Void entities also tend to feed off negative emotions like panic and fear and there was plenty of that happening when they had Void magic forcepushed into their noggins.

This is from the WoWPedia’s article on the Void btw.

Like I said, I hope using the Void doesn’t come back to bite the Alliance at a future date, nor do I hope Alleria doesn’t cross any more dark lines that might lead to something truly horrifying.

316

Alliance troops conducting an Alliance sponsored attack on Horde sovereign territory under the banner of the Alliance.

Not the Alliance’s responsibility for what happens…

Quintessential hand-waving.

:cactus:

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And I don’t really care about that. Nor do I think the Alliance should, as long as it leads to the capture of Sylvanas.

So, in your mind, using the void in it’s entirety is immoral? Even when you are accomplishing something that may save the world?

I don’t think she crossed a line at all. She is perusing a fugitive who may lead to the capture of a violent and cunning war criminal. The capture of this fugitive could be the very thing that saves Azeroth and the untold number of innocent lives that lives upon her.

If you have to traumatize a couple of cowards to achieve that, then it’s your moral responsibility to do so.

That isn’t what I said, I said it was irrelevant to the discussion.

It is a completely separate thing, because the Alliance and their leadership is attacking the Undercity, an action the Alliance is responsible for.

The Alliance is not responsible for the actions of Putress at the Wrathgate.

Unless we are talking about vengeance, which I think is owed to Alliance and Horde alike.

318

Horde: “The Alliance is responsible for these rogue groups doing bad things.”

Me: “I disagree, otherwise the Horde would also be responsible for their own rogue groups doing bad things.”

Horde: “You can’t blame the entire Horde for the actions of individuals.”

Me: “I agree, you can’t do it to Alliance either.”

Horde: “REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE”

Seriously guys, a little consistency please?

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You should. It’s ugly and gross and immoral and it gives the Void an edge that it shouldn’t really have. Personally I’ve had enough of the Void and its gross tentacle armies and Old Gods.

Yes.

If they use it and it saves the world, good for them. Do the victims of torture get comfort and reporcussions for have their skulls invaded by gross void magic or are they left to their own devices because they’re “Cowards” for not talking?

I guess we can at least give Alleria and Turalyon some credit for giving material aid to the Horde civilians after they tortured the orc mom, but her mind would still take weeks or even months to recover from it.

She did cross a line. Even Turalyon thought it was crossing a line before she did the deed. “Is this who we have become?” he asked her before she resorted to it, but both agreed that it was necessary because they felt they were out of time and out of options and were desperate.

This is what their fear of Sylvanas has brought them to and fear makes people resort to doing ugly, immoral things.

Fine, but just so you know, when you perfom actions that you normally would associate with things villains do then it makes it a bit harder to call yourself the Hero.

I’m sure you know that one quote about people who fight monsters should take care to not turn into monsters along they way.

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Literally what you said.

Also, you seem to be conflating responsibility and guilt. Let me see.

If I have a junior Soldier, I am legally obligated to hold said Soldier accountable to a given standard. Let’s use uniform regulations as an example. If the Soldier is found on duty to be outside of that standard it is my responsibility to correct the Soldier. If the same Soldier is found to be outside the standard again (willfully or otherwise) it can lead to action being taken against them and at the same time I get looked at by my superiors to figure out why the Soldier in my charge is outside of the standard. I’m not being punished at this point but it is still my responsibility to ensure the Soldier is within the established standards.

So, while the Alliance may not be responsible in the sense that they deserve the punishment for the actions of their Soldiers, they share responsibilty (not guilt) with them. Just as the Horde was responsible for keeping an eye on Sylvanas following the Wrathgate Incident.

I do think we are actually talking about the same things just from differing perspectives.

:cactus:

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I disagree. The Void is a non-sentient force. There is nothing to indicate using it will help in in anyway. No more than using the Light helps the Naaru or anything else.

They get to continue to exist. No thanks to themselves for being weak and cowardly.

Of course he did, he is the Light’s ultimate boy scout.

It’s not fear… It’s conviction. A willingness to stop Sylvanas by any means. Sometimes that is what it takes.

Not something I ever subscribed too. Where I see evil, I act out against it. My enemies will not know peace. I am not trying to be a hero. I am a righteous monster, and I think people like that are necessary.

What are you even on about at this point? Did I lose you somewhere? We were talking about the Wrathgate, and where responsibility lies within the Horde. What does the Alliance have to do with that?

So its an issue of semantics. This was a conversation regarding when the Alliance has or has not been evil. So, you came into the conversation lacking context, and thus did not fully understand my meanings.

322

Pretty much anything that has ever come out of the Void has been evil in some form or another, or at least completely destructive. Old Gods, hungering Void Entities, invasive powers, etc. Even when people who don’t mean to use it for evil purposes bad things can still happen, such as when Alleria’s presence to the Sunwell inadvertently began opening Void Portals and letting unsavory void critters pass through.

Lor’themar was right to kick them all out of Silvermoon.

The weak and the cowardly thing is to resort to such unsavory tactics.

He’s not that much of a boy-scout since he not only went along with it, but also used the Light to help out. Hence why I think he’s whipped to the point of being loyal to Alleria more than he’s loyal to the Light.

I’d hate to be in his shoes if Xe’ra ever makes a return.

Conviction involves sticking with one’s beliefs and moral code as they try to get the job done. They didn’t. The deliberately went with what they knew was an immoral choice because they had felt they ran out of options. Instead of trying to figure something better, they took the easier dark route.

That’s fear.

Glad to hear you at least recognize you’re a “monster”.

I’ll continue to keep my moral compass, thank you very much.

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Same thing with the Fel, but we have seen people use both those powers for good and noble ends.

To use your own logic (Which, I have explained why is a moot point), Magni could have given the Heart of Azeroth to a Shadow Priest, or a Warlock.

So why are we focusing so much on the magic Alleria utilized and not more focused on what the stakes were. Again, the security of the entire world is on the table. A few traumatized cowards is a small price.

Lor’themar didn’t kick them out of Silvermoon because the Void is taboo… Hell, his people nibble demon rocks.

His did it because the Light and Void clash, and it was a direct threat to the security of the Sun Well.

It wasn’t a moral choice, it was a practical choice.

Well, if saving the world came at the price of being perceived as weak and cowardly, I will make the trade every time.

I still think allowing yourself to be intimidated by villains who are actively working against your own self interest is the cowardly thing.

Xe’ra literally tried to force herself on Illidan. So, if we are going to blame the Void for it’s denizens, the Light isn’t looking much better.

There were no other options. And “By any means necessary” can be a conviction in itself. Conviction doesn’t have to conform to your personal moral code. It can simply be an ideal.

Anyone who virtue signals the way you do, don’t have a real moral compass. It will crumble as soon as it is challenged.