Blizzard is a lot late just to worry about cool downs . Maybe they SHOULD OF THOUGHT OF THAT 15 YEARS AGO !
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What I don’t understand is why people waiting 10 mins for cooldowns is an issue. I’d never do it, that sounds awful. But if some people do, that doesn’t affect me.
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It changes the spirit of the game. Without some kind of soft enrage mechanic, when looking at someone’s progress in Torghast there’s no way to know if they ascended that far on their own skill/merit or if they Netflix-on-a-second-screen’d their way through.
I don’t care how far other people climb Torghast though. I’m not playing their characters.
Totally fair, but for a lot of players, it being possible to cheese one’s way through devalues the accomplishment. It’d be like if there were a way to skip the mechanics in a mythic raid boss fight by stretching the fight out to take 5x longer… sure, it’s not practical, but it really shouldn’t even be possible in the first place.
Let’s cut to the chase here: are you in alpha? Have you tested any of this? Have you watched streams or youtube videos from anyone who has?
If you haven’t, that’s fine. You are basing your opinion on the information available to you.
Please read the alpha feedback thread, starting from this blue post:
I have yet to see any alpha testers comment in favor of torments or agree that they meet Blizzard’s stated goals.
That indicates that either the torment system in general is a bad idea, or the specific implementations they have chosen are not well designed. There is one
torment (out of 6), which decreases your damage done, ramping every 2 minutes. That, and that alone, gives you a gentle nudge to keep moving while not being overly punitive or annoying (or at least it does at the higher floors after it becomes active, it isn’t strong enough at 1% per 2 minutes to actually dissuade you, because the cooldowns themselves are strong enough to more than counter it). If you wait around for cooldowns, your base damage is lower, thus the cooldown is less effective.
I’d also be okay with a mechanic to let random trash mobs (not elites or bosses, where cooldown use is to be expected) Dispel Magic, so after you wait 10 minutes to use Bloodlust on a generic Mawsworn Guard, the Guard just purges it and you have completely wasted your time. Another possibility would be reducing buff durations on you by something like 1/2/3/4/5/6% per minute, so yeah you might wait for Bloodlust once on floor N+5, but waiting on it twice would be completely worthless.
Either of these would need to be balanced carefully to avoid overly penalizing tanks and HoT based healers, maybe make AM and HoTs exempt from both mechanics.
The thing with both of these mechanics is that they would be specifically targeted at the wait-for-cooldowns problem, rather than introducing a bunch of annoying crap that doesn’t do anything to actually solve the wait-for-cooldowns problem.
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I mean. I am not against tinkering with them or replacing them with something else for better balance.
I just don’t think they are making the game as unplayable as people imply merely because the concept of Torments exist.
And that is what most of these complaints are about. Not the specific ones that may need to be adjusted. But the general concept as a whole.
Sure, but I don’t think waiting for cooldowns between every pull is the same as “cheesing”. Who knows how many extra floors that would actually give you in the end. The way things are balanced right now you might not even start off on a playable floor.
If you’re concerned with “rankings”, you could balance it out with time. Not the same as a hard timer, but if one guy got to floor 100 in an hour and another got to floor 101 in 5 hours, I think that would provide a valid counterbalance.
Counter-question: why are you playing a game that you don’t find fun?
Blizzard makes the game. They make it in a certain way. They design it for a certain type of fun - a lot of types, really, more than earlier in WoW’s history for sure - and then you have the option of buying it or not.
Do you get mad at writers for “telling you” what’s in their book?
… or you could simply uncouple better gear progression from doing harder content, or at least drastically reduce the power differential. Less RNG and a more deterministic gearing system (go all in on the Justice/Valor point system) would also help things out more.
The objective isn’t to remove gear progression, just make it matter significantly less.
I can’t see that being a good idea.
And ultimately I feel that is a horrible direction to take a character progression game. It would redefine WoW into something its never been about. It would drive away people in mass.
The Risk/Reward system should remain a pillar of the genre.
Making WoW about that was a horrible decision decision in the first place.
And as it gets pushed to the forefront more and more, it IS driving players away en masse.
Then don’t play? They aren’t telling you what is fun and what isn’t. You need to learn what goes into an mmo and how hard it is to keep people playing. Your fun is likely flying out of the gate, 0 rng, tokens for gear so you can get BiS in a few weeks, no rep farming, no grinding, everything handed to you. If an mmo did that, then the game would shut down because people would be unsubbing from boredom because no way and developers could keep up with content when people finish everything in a month.
Also, this is Blizzard’s vision not yours. Make your own game then.
As a side note. What is fun for you might not be fun for others. I personally love the sense of accomplish for time I put into something and I have lost a lot of that since people want free high ilvl gear raining from the skies etc. That’s why I love pathfiner because I get that feeling after putting in some work on something I really wanted.
Obviously not. It was instrumental in WoW becoming popular.
And I disagree that better gear coming from harder content is what is driving players away.
Not unplayable, less fun. This is from firsthand experience both before and after Torments were added.
As an MM Hunter, I don’t want to be forced to run with a pet for trash because the Leech counters a constantly ticking DoT. I’d rather build for burst damage and play high risk high reward.
As a Hunter with Feign Death and Camouflage, I don’t want the tools I have specifically to avoid enemies be invalidated by random spawns that don’t care about those abilities.
As a squishy DPS, I don’t want a soft enrage that will cause elites to oneshot me if I happen to take longer than an arbitrary amount of time to get there, or I haven’t built tanky with my anima powers.
If you want to nerf my damage because I took too long, that’s fine and achieves the stated goal.
My position the entire time has been this:
I don’t like torments or timers and would prefer they didn’t exist. I can understand and recognize that if there are power gains to be had by waiting for long cooldown abilities on difficult floors, min/max players will feel compelled to do so, and that attitude will filter down and become meta, which is bad for the health of the game, because sitting idle instead of playing isn’t fun, and I can accept the premise that Blizzard wants to prevent this from becoming a major issue.
I disagree on the approach they have taken here. My preferred methods of dealing with this are as follows:
- Remove the portable player power incentives for waiting around for cooldowns on highly difficult floors. This means keeping mandatory legendary progression, and any gear progression that can’t be paralleled in other content, to less difficult floors. I am not opposed to optional methods to increase difficulty, with appropriate rewards not related to the mandatory progression.
- Incentivize quick clears with bonus rewards, again unrelated to the mandatory legendary progression and any gear progression that can’t be paralleled in other content.
- Introduce highly targeted torments that specifically address the waiting-for-cooldowns problem, and ONLY that problem.
- Generally make the content progressively harder the longer you take per floor without introducing non-difficulty based irritants.
- The current system.
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Modern Blizzard leads wouldn’t know fun if their life depended on it.
It’s called grooming/training the players. Sorta like how they try to get new players to get behind delaying flying and other changes to the game. Unless a good amount of players unsub from the game. They push forward with there changes. Sorta like when no flying was announced for Warlords. Massive amounts of players unsubbed which then caused them to be forced to add it back. But with the retaliation of the devs enforcing pathfinder to punch back at players for going against there decision. There has to be a decrease in subs for a change to happen.
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There’s a weird amount of “Its Blizzard’s game they can do what they want make your own game then” in this thread. Obviously its Blizzard’s game. That doesn’t mean people can’t voice their opinion and give feedback on what they want.
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Gear progression mattered less for the VAST majority of WoW players from Vanilla through WotLK. Most people never looked at raiding at all and didn’t care for it. They just enjoyed the content they could access. Hell, the only times I enjoyed PvP was what was essentially beer-league BGs in Vanilla BEFORE most people took it seriously.
As raiding and other hardcore content have become more prominent over the years, the playerbase has shrunk bit by bit.
Most people do NOT play video games seriously, period. It’s entertainment and a hobby, either you’re having fun right now or you’re not. If you’re not having fun right now, you’re not going to bother finding out if you’re having fun later.
I don’t see the problem still. If you’re running it solo, then it doesn’t matter. If your whole group agrees to run it that way, then it doesn’t matter.
No different than people using skips in M+ as I’m sure Blizz didn’t intentionally add mobs for you to not kill.
People keep bringing up the point that you only get timed after the 10th floor and you’ve gotten the relevant rewards, but that only makes it worse. If you’re only moving forward as a challenge, and the first 10 are the ones that give rewards, it sounds backwards to me. lol
No timer on the part that grants rewards, but a timer on the part you’re doing for fun. Ok.
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