Why do you hate Dungeons and Raid Finder really?

[Raiza-frostmane]

I land on Boardwalk with Hotels, and reach over to the bank and grab a few $500 bills.

LMAO I’m going to try that and see what happens.

[Kreivos-zuljin (Kreivos)]

I know what you mean. I didn’t kill any of those guys while it was relevant but it would have been cool. Back then I always had that incentive to progress so I could kill them. Now we can just wait a month after the raid launches and get a kill without pressing a single button.

But I am happy you are having a better time with the game now.

I honestly do find it better to be included, to count on feeling like a part of the storyline and of the game, than to be left out for a few years when the raid finally becomes soloable and no one cares.

[Teksuo-grizzly-hills]

the dudes @ 370+ gear score from lucky raid finder drops must be pretty rare ; and even then it’s not that hard to check wowprogress to see if he’s suited for the content you aim for or not

really no reason to hate on LFR heroes.

lfr gives 340 gear, +20 for perfect titan forge would give 360.

there’s no serious content you’re welcome in @360 gear score let’s be real.

[Nillah-uldaman (Nillah)]

To be fair in FFXIV you just have to spam a rotation and you cant die even of half the raid trolls. So it is pretty… boring.

I’ve always found the rotations in FF far more challenging than WoW’s. They’re in that sweet spot in between where WoW is now, and too much button bloat. It’s just right.

And if you’re talking about the level 50 raids, I agree. Anything higher than that and trolls would need to be kicked for the group to succeed. The max level 24 man raids in particular are pretty rough.

[Waroath-thrall]

the dudes @ 370+ gear score from lucky raid finder drops must be pretty rare

The people that have multiple slots at 370 from World Bosses and doing Warfronts are actually more common than you think.

really no reason to hate on LFR heroes

I’m not. If I was then I must have misscomunicated something.

lfr gives 340 gear, +20 for perfect titan forge would give 360

Warfronts give a 370 piece per rotation, Reputation farming gives 355+, World Bosses give 355/370/385 depending on the zone, and Crafting can do some 340 now.

This character capped 120 today and in about 30mins I have a 320 ilv, enough to do LFR and Warfronts on it for a set of 340 gear. I don’t plan on doing more with it than that but the point stands that gear until about 360 is seriously non-effort to get at any skill level.

My point was to contrast players that have the skill needed to push their characters potential to 90+% of what it can be to players that are at something like 50 or 60%. The difference there irritates players that understand the game and causes some annimocity against the people that don’t know what they are doing.

Theres nothing inherently wrong with just playing casually, there is something wrong with preforming poorly.

[Raiza-frostmane]

I honestly do find it better to be included, to count on feeling like a part of the storyline and of the game, than to be left out for a few years when the raid finally becomes soloable and no one cares.

Ion agrees with you. The team thinks four difficulties is healthy for the game. I think you lose more than you gain.

[Kreivos-zuljin (Kreivos)]

Ion agrees with you. The team thinks four difficulties is healthy for the game. I think you lose more than you gain.

I wouldn’t complain if they combined Normal and Heroic, and changed Mythic back to old Heroic, if they really had to remove a difficulty. But LFR serves the niche it needs to and it needs to stay.

[Teksuo-grizzly-hills]

Theres nothing inherently wrong with just playing casually, there is something wrong with preforming poorly.

removing LFR will not make anyone better, i don’t see it really.
anyways. not gonna settle the LFR debate here today, it’s been a troll favorite for years

[Waroath-thrall]

removing LFR will not make anyone better, i don’t see it really

It makes players feel like they are doing something important with their game time which is the point of WoW in general imo.

And agreed, the LFR debate is one that is probably still going on in Blizzard. Though I will add that removing it would make a lot of people angry, I’m thinking like 80% of the outrage that removing Flying had. Probably an approach best left undone by Blizzard.

[Meriweather-aggramar]

for cross-realm. The quality difference of groups and people you encounter (not skill, the quality of “fun and enjoyment”) when the groups are all on-server and then when they are cross-server is very stark.

I don’t disagree. We aren’t disagreeing. Server groups have WAY more to do with the issues than LFR/D…which predates the grouping of server pop unless I’m mistaken. That’s a mixing people up issue - a breaking of the pristine servers issue - not an issue with the Looking For Group tool or a result of nerfed raiding content via random grouping.

People blame the LFG tool, and my entire point is that it isn’t the tool’s fault. It’s a series of things that occurred, and the server grouping & sharding is one of those.

I don’t think we disagree at all.

[Meriweather-aggramar]

An exmaple like this rather indicates a system that facilites complete non-interaction in an interactive cooperative multiplayer game.

100% agree. And again, I contend this is because of the grouping of servers instead of squishing server numbers and moving people to keep the one-server-only community. If you see the same names and guild tags over and over again, there is inevitably a sense of belonging and social stability that simply is not present without it.

I don’t agree that making groups easily is the problem. Interaction occurs when you see people over and over again. If you’re LFG in gen chat or LFG through a tool, you’re going to see the same people over and over again IF you’re in a closed community. I don’t believe that LFG killed interaction. I wrote a whole thing (like yours here, and I appreciate the time it took) explaining my thoughts on how it all broke down. I don’t think server groups are the only reason, but I think they’re a huge part. And we blame the LFR/D tool…and I don’t think it’s to blame.

[Lehmon-blackhand]

Love the system, hate random groups.

I wish there were more of an incentive not to be a total cheesebag.

[Jerauld-uther (Jerauld)]

I don’t hate dungeons, I just hate the random people I get in them. They’re a blast when i run with friends and guildies, they don’t go over every little mistake.

[Kreivos-zuljin (Kreivos)]

I wish there were more of an incentive not to be a total cheesebag.

The really bad ones I report and ignore. It’s not much but if enough people did that, their game play would be affected by potential suspensions and longer queue times.

[Rannoch-bonechewer (Rannoch)]

All things considered, they aren’t that bad. I remember the days in WOTLK before LFD was even an idea, where you’d spend more time than not LFG in trade chat.

Yes, it fostered a community because it was before CRZ were a thing, but once a group found its groove, they weren’t about to recruit more people. That’s what Mythic dungeons are like now, but it was less organized back then. As a result, the pool got smaller and smaller, which was a disaster if you were on a smaller realm or faction. CRZ and LFD helped a lot in that regard, I think.

People often say that dungeons were ‘dumbed down’ because of LFD, but then Cataclysm Heroics slapped them in the face with demanding CC, team-based game mechanics, and punishing bosses…and those same people complained that heroics were suddenly too hard.

The systems themselves are fine. The problem is that for the longest time, the game simply didn’t force the players to learn mechanics: people basically facerolled their way via LFD through until they hit max level, and bam, then they hit a wall because they just reamed through 80+ levels of content where they didn’t have to learn how to use the finer tools in their class’s toolbox. I think that came to a screeching halt with level scaling…as well as world mobs using abilities that were approximate to some basic raid mechanics.

The problem may be in the past, I don’t know. I tend to avoid doing LF-anything, but I don’t hate anything about the system itself.

[Bellharth-moon-guard]

Rotations are never hard, their effectiviness or difficulty is tied to game mechanichs, which can make even auto attacking more complex such as paladin seal twisting in TBC. And which even past level 50 are not there in FFXIV.

[Raicolette-moon-guard (Raicolette)]

@Raicolette-moon-guard

I think LFR should be changed. LFR doesn’t teach raiding and it’s actually nothing but a faceroll every time. I think it should be changed.

I think it should be changed with scaling mechanics. So, LFR should have the difficulty of Normal mechanics to start out with for each boss. After each wipe, instead of giving a flat out bonus to HP, dps, and healing, the mechanics should scale down to the simplicity face roll they are now.

I’m not saying I hate LFR raiders but I’m saying I hate LFR because it teaches nothing and is just a faceroll. It should take some effort and attempts at learning the fight instead of it being so blatantly easy.

Stupid 10 characters
I agreed with 1 post from that thread I created last month. Makes sense to me but I still don’t think it should be so faceroll easy. Should offer some challenge.

[Zenotaph-khaz-modan (Zenotaph)]

This wouldn’t be - such - an issue if Blizz bothered - at all - to refine and improve the selection and grouping process.

I don’t dungeon or raid because of the potential toxicity of random grouping…AND…AND!!!..because the manual finder tool is old and simplistic, forcing players to go begging to elitists for groups.

If Blizz hadn’t gutted the need for guilds and then attempted, far too late, to make them relevant again, this wouldn’t be an issue.

[Like-area-52]

Because this wasn’t meant to be a lobby game.

[Daiyu-eitrigg (Daiyu)]

Why are these 2 features considered one of the worse things WOW has ever incorporated?

Most common reason I’ve heard when people believe they’re in a safe space where they can speak their mind is they believe the “casuals” don’t deserve anything. They see casuals as inferior sub humans that should be only in blue quality gear at best. The LF systems allow people who put RL as a priority but still want to see content and upgrade their character. The people who are against it are people that experienced or heard about the full T2 paladin with Hand of Ragnaros afking on his epic charger in Ironforge and was surrounded by players of all levels admiring him. They want to experience that so if they can deprive people of opportunity then it will create a large “poor” group of players to give them attention.