You’re free to look it up yourself about the non-canon. It’s in one of the recent Lore Q&A. But even then, I’ve been more than happy to indulge you and refute whatever nonsense you bring from them.
Yea… three qualities are capable, competent and has the Horde’s best interest. Morality is not one of them. Morality, as a concept, is far beyond “good” and “evil” and to reduce it as such demonstrates your lack of understanding of morality. And no, I am not going to get into a pointless discussion on morality as it’s an individual construct created based on life experience. The fact that you have such a black and white view on morality goes back to how naïve people like you and Baine are.
I never said Baine refused to send Saurfang help, I said he didn’t. There’s a difference. And you’re still not getting the point. I made it very clear that helping Derek Proudmoore isn’t a big deal IF Baine has demonstrated in other ways that he is willing to help the Horde but he has not and that’s why it’s a big deal.
There’s quite literally nothing on it in the Lore and Story Q&A.
Which are the rules that you made up.
And I didn’t. Baine has a heart of gold and does what is right, regardless of what others may feel. If is irrefutable that denying Derek’s free-wil was a horrible crime, so too was Teldrassil. Baine was opposed to both of those events, and has only kept quiet about what Sylvanas did in sake of keeping the Horde together. It eventually came to the point where Baine could no longer stay silent.
Morality matters to the Horde because morality is what drives it. It is what seperates the New Horde from the Old Horde. And if you’re going to say morality doesn’t matter, then you’re only convincing me more and more that you are favored towards Sylvanas.
But that doesn’t matter. It is irrelevant because there is NOTHING stating that Baine was ever told of Saurfang’s location. You cannot blame him for something that never happened!
And what do you think calling out Sylvanas was doing? It was exposing Sylvanas for her crimes, and showing the Horde how she will only lead them to ruin.
Baine has helped the Horde in far more ways than Sylvanas in this expansion.
Yes, those are my three criteria which is why I have clearly no interest in Baine being Warchief… You have been trying to convince me that Baine is qualified for Warchief through my criteria and now you’re trying to change it to your criteria.
You can be the nicest guy in the world but if you can’t get crap done then I have no interest in following you. I’ve stated my personal opinion and why I believe the war is necessary for the progress of the Horde. HOWEVER, if someone like Saurfang as leader pushes for peace… I would question but follow. Why? Because Saurfang has proven that he is there for the Horde and he can get crap done so I will trust his judgement because if he gets us in a bind, he will get us out. I do not trust Baine to be capable of that. That’s why, for me, being capable and competent is far more important than being “moral”.
And again, you’re not getting the point. It’s the timeline… he calls out Sylvanas when? When a Proudmoore is being wronged. There are far too many times Baine has stood against a Warchief because of a Proudmoore. I don’t care if he is “right” or “wrong”, it’s far too coincidental that it’s always when a Proudmoore is in danger.
Edit: By the way, if we were to analyze what Baine has done this expansion… like really analyze it… that’s more ammo against him as Warchief. If we consider that he does far more than stands by a map then it’s just embarrassing. The assumption is that he is in charge of Horde forces in Zandalar… distributing them and locating them, etc. In Zuldazar I don’t notice any Horde forces during questing other than the Forsaken he sends us to check on… and they’re just there under supplied and doing their job. In Nazmir when Rokhan requests reinforcements and all we get are the Gob Squad, him and Talanji clearly voice their disappointment with whoever’s assigning reinforcements. In Vol’dun we’re abandoned and on our own and BfD was a total disaster of troop allocation. Doing a bang up job as “leader” Baine.
I don’t think Baine would make a good Warchief. He is very indecisive, inexperienced and quite honestly lacks a spine. Lor’themar wouldn’t really be a good pick either. I don’t see them bringing Thrall back, seeing as how Metzen is gone and they’ll essentially made it seem like Thralls biggest priority is just focusing on his family life. Your options essentially come down to Saurfang and Vol’jin. Vol’jin may be dead but he is far from out of the picture and it is obvious he is going to have an important role going forward, but of the two I feel Saurfang is most suited to lead the Horde. He seems to be having an inner conflict with himself, between what the Horde is and what the Horde should be. It is shown that it is something he cares deeply for and while I doubt he would want the burden of leadership, he would be willing to take the bullet to lead the Horde in what he believes is the right direction.
No, I get it. I can read. Baine tells us that he is going to Zuldazar to keep an eye on the Horde and make sure we don’t lose outnumbered way. He had called out Sylvanas many times before on her actions, but this time he was given the chance to do the right thing.
So he did. This wasn’t the straw that’s broke the camels back, as Baine only called out Sylvanas AFTER she had discovered what he and Zelling did.
Yeah, and I’ve proven that he has the Horde’s best interest in mind, and I’ve proven that he can lead when necessary. Those are the two criteria you have (FYI competent and capable are synonyms.)
You refuse to acknowledge that Baine is capable in battle. You want me to provide tons of examples on Baine’s combatical victories, despite many of Baine’s victories lie in diplomacy.
I provided one example of these diplomatic victories, but you then retorted with “lol bootlicking”
Becaues the things you consider “victories” are PATHETIC. Quilboars? Grimtotem? Level 15 newbies are what handles those problems. And then you act like he solo’d the Emerald Nightmare when, per your quote, he’s ONE OF MANY and he gave up leadership to the ALLIANCE.
And let’s look at what Baine’s “diplomacy” has gotten us? Alliance crawl all over the Southern Barrens… which was once 100% Horde territory, Grimtotem have destroyed Freewind post and all but eliminated the Tauren presence in 1K Needles and he’s created a romantic pen pal relationship with Anduin which has led to nothing. What gains has Baine’s diplomacy gotten us other than HM Taurens (of which, Sylvanas, Liadrin and Eitrigg have also managed to recruit other races while still leading in combat).
Permanent product homie. Just look at the map since Baine took over. Tauren have lost territory while every other Horde race has managed to gain territory. That’s what your “diplomacy” gets you.
All of your reasons seemed to ignore major plot points in the Horde storyline (like no backstory, no motivation, etc). So sorry ; ), didn’t know what else wod cause that. I loved Jaina too.
If the omen thing is true that makes me kind of sad. Sylvanas dying by the hand of Talanji seems to take away all the revenge I want to see from the Burning of Teldrassil.
Logically who are possible options? Thrall, baine, lolthemar. Thats about it. Maybe saurfang but i doubt it.
Given that lolthemar loathes politics he would probably refuse it.
So all thats left is baine and thrall if he returns.
Personally no more warchiefs they have all failed. No more anything ressembling the orcish horde. Rename the faction the coalition or the federation. And use a council system from now on.
Yeah, Rexxar really is Orc Batman. He would make a really good Warchief, but it seems Blizzard doesn’t want him to be any more important than characters like Thalyssra, which is a shame.
In a perfect world, all games and movie be exactly like the books many enjoy and read. Then reality sets in and people walk out halfway through a movie. The movie was just like a book and they saw no reason to stay. Most business realizes and does not copy directly from a book. The book lore people here use and say it is canon. fail to realize that a boring game. Most people refuse the game does not follow lore and say it in the game when not. Sure I like a perfect boring world sometimes. I also like the fact the company picks an choose what lore. make the game fun. Thus just because book says one thing, does not mean it cannon in game.
3 instances where she successfully organizes joint Horde/Alliance operations.
Shattered Sun Offensive
Iron Vanguard/WoD assault on Auchindon/Shattrath
Suramar and recruited the Nightborne while she was there.
She also finds time to assist with the Paladins in their order hall, lead the Horde during incursions and assist with Stromgarde. Notice how she helps the Horde while still being able to negotiate joint task forces.
Eitrigg also frequently acts as the Horde liason to neutral parties such as the Argent Dawn and yet he still also finds time to lead Horde defenses in Stromgarde, acts as the Horde representative to Odyn and co-leads operations in Drustvar.
So let’s talk about Baine the diplomat. Has he led any joint task forces? No. Has he helped organize or participated in any joint task force? No… unless you count the boot licking he does in your Emerald Nightmare. Definitely nothing in game. Has he helped lead any Horde offenses while still doing the diplomat thing? No. Do you see yet why he’s a useless, pathetic little Alliance sympathizer who’s undeserving of the title of Warchief?
You keep talking about how I refer to other characters instead of focusing on Baine.
I really don’t see this conversation going anywhere, and I’m tired of just repeating the same things over and over again. I get it, you don’t like Baine, but you can’t ignore the points that I have provided. You can go on Wowpedia yourself and look up some examples. I’m just done arguing, because I’d rather this post include multiple people’s opinions and not our stupid, pointless, and (let’s be honest) endless bickering.