Darion’s a horseman.
Turalyon gets smote.
I agree with the idea that on average the difference in power is pretty slim, at least when going solely by their own personal power. Both classes can gain huge advantages in certain terrain, so I think that would be a factor for any specific fight, along with considering elements of surprise and pre-planning, as well as how experienced the paladin is and what the death knight was in life. For example, if the death knight is a former paladin themselves and is fighting a paladin of the same training tradition, they might have an advantage in knowing how the paladin is likely to fight.
Oh, that’s a delicious scenario to consider! I think it would drastically depend on terrain and whether or not it was a pre-planned fight or a surprise confrontation. Turalyon is a powerful fighter and has way more experience overall, but most of that experience is fighting the old Horde or the Legion, and since he was absent during the Third War he would have very little, if any, experience fighting against modern death knights. Meanwhile, the current iteration of death knights were developed specifically to counter powerful Silver Hand paladins like Turalyon, and Darion is arguably the most powerful one left at this point. Darion is far younger than Turalyon and therefore a less experienced fighter overall, but he’s the son of the Ashbringer and spent his teens fighting alongside the best of the surviving Silver Hand paladins while training to be one himself, so he has very good first-hand knowledge of their fighting discipline and tactics. We’ve also seen Darion make great use of careful planning when he’s expecting a fight, both in general and against paladins specifically. I’d also factor in whether or not horses/mounts are involved. We know Darion’s a skilled mounted combatant, but I don’t know anything about Turalyon’s current ability to ride and fight at the same time.
I think as long as they’re not fighting at Light’s Hope (because we all know what happens whenever Darion goes there), Darion would have a good chance at winning, but it wouldn’t be an easy fight and he’d have to be at his best in order to counter Turalyon’s greater martial experience. He’d have a greater chance if he knew about it in advance and could plan accordingly.
1 Like
Arhas DK’s had no average Joes. While they were alive, they were the best of the best, and even so were put through the ultimate of meat grinder training, so any of them fresh out the gate would cut down newly commissioned Paladins like meat.
Bolivar however seems to have a lower standard of application and while he’s not Mr. Nice and Sunny anymore does not seem to be anywhere near as ruthless in his training standards as Arthas was. That would be more of a toss up but they are still a Hero class. Whereas Paladins were just army units you built in the RTS.
1 Like
It’s 2022 and there are still problematic themes of people taking inspiration from cults. Paladins are a religious group and all religion is used for is to scam gullible people. We see this in the abuse scandels that keep coming out. There magic is lies and snake oil. Dead knights are better.
@Fangurlz, it is a fact that the Light does exist and grant power in the Warcraft universe, regardless of whatever our real-life religious views are or the misdeeds of any religious or non-religious person. Anything else on that subject is a discussion for elsewhere.
3 Likes
Electricity exists but that doesnt mean theres a god living in your lightbulb!
We’re talking about an in-universe higher power in a video game setting. Keep the discussion on that and put a lid on your angstheism, because it looks like you’re either trolling or trying to start a debate on real-life religion.
4 Likes
Dont ask questions you dont want answers to!
A quick look at your profile shows you speak like a far-left troll. Since you don’t seem interested in actual intellectual discussion, this exchange between you and me is over.
You make a good point, @Drahliana. The Death Knights made by Arthas were the cream of the crop, and further tested to select the best of them. Paladins are also tested, but not as extensively.
1 Like
Oh so you’re part of the alt right, yeah we’re done.
What about their fighting styles? For example, Darion dual-wields while Turalyon uses a greatsword.
1 Like
That in and of itself is not an indication of skill or the ultimate victor. The heroes of Star Wars for instance are in the main single wielding saber fighters who triumph over dual wielding Sith.
Chef’s kiss
Death Knights were also designed to be Paladin killers. (In the story, not so much in gameplay)
1 Like
Ironically, all Death Knight generations have paladin ties.
- 1st generation; Orc souls put in human corpses, including paladins’, and made by a force that fought paladins.
- 2nd generation; Former paladins.
- 3rd generation; Paladin-killers made and trained by a former paladin and likely include former paladins in their ranks.
- 4th generation; Made by a former paladin and may include former paladins in their ranks.
Sidenote: In hindsight, this pattern makes me wonder whether Blizzard dislikes paladins or what they represent. Ever major paladin seems to end the story dead (Uther, Tirion) or becoming a villain (Renault, Yrel)… unless they cease to be a paladin (Darion, Bolvar). Makes me wonder what’s in store for Liadrin, Arator and Turalyon… If at least one of them ends their story without dying, becoming an apostate and/or a villain, that would blow my mind.
Paladins are fanatics and while they may mean well, they tend not to consider what or whom they roll over in pursuit of their goal. Arthas himself was a classic example of how Paladins can misstep through zeal.
And part of it is that many of those who were historically revered as Paladin-like figures like Charlemagne and Richard the Lion-Hearted were in truth malicious bastards in heart and deed. So anyone who’s presented as a pure and heroic figure tends to trigger our skeptic reflexes.
I disagree with the claim that every paladin is a fanatic as we see in-game and lore this doesn’t apply to every paladin, and find that take on Charlemagne and Richard the Lion-Hearted rather myopic.
Even if such a partisan stance was universally true, Blizzard has shoved that message down our throats in their stories to the point of abrasive cliché (Tal’drim Protoss, Malthael’s Reapers, the Mogu, the Lightbound…). Granted, those who share such bias are unlikely to tire of it…including those in charge of the stories of Diablo, Starcraft and World of Warcraft given how they keep/kept pushing those themes.
While I don’t agree with your position, I understand it and others who share it better now.
In the Forgotten Realms, the major characters worry when Paladins start to mass in large numbers to the same degree as they do an orc invasion.
Do keep in mind that Blizzard sees their target audience as folks who go for simple uncomplicated stories to set up RAID battles and PVP. They don’t see them as a market for deep nuance.
Darion currently dual-wields, but he’s also used a two-handed greatsword in the past, both when he was alive and at times as a death knight. I’m not sure if he has a preference overall, considering that he went straight to dual-wielding after the Ashbringer was purified rather than picking up another greatsword. If I were to make some very loose guesses based on sword fighting tropes and game mechanics, I’d guess that Darion might be a bit quicker when dual-wielding, which could in theory give him some advantages in both avoiding being hit by Turalyon’s greatsword and in possibly tiring Turalyon out over time. The fact that he’s physically younger and undead might also help in that department. I just don’t know if Turalyon’s Light-forging gives him any significant help in endurance and stamina recovery that could counter a death knight’s advantages in those areas, let alone whatever special stats a Horseman has.
Also, if his transmog is anything to judge by, Darion wears saronite armor, and that could help mitigate Turalyon’s Light-wielding attacks. Darion has a lot going for him, I just don’t know enough about Turalyon’s current stats and abilities to say for sure if it would be enough.
I suspect much of it is that morally good and upstanding characters can be challenging to write well or less interesting to a writer, compared to tragic deaths and corruption arcs. Superman suffers the same problem, often being dismissed as boring even though he can be a fantastic character when handled well.
Which major characters worry? Because there’s quite a few major characters in Forgotten Realms.
You might be onto something about Blizzard’s view of the audience.
It doesn’t help that quite a bit of the fanbase has, in the past, lapped up story elements without regard for consistency or continuity and showered Blizz with praise for it. It’s a pain when Blizzard tries their hand at nuance only to bungle it (eg; framing black and white conflicts as “morally grey” - Sylvanas-led Horde vs Alliance, while ignoring all nuance in a morally grey story to push a black and white narrative - eg Mag’har vs “Lightbound”).
I’ve seen Blizzard do nuance in stories well, the problem is when nuance isn’t thought through, or gets thrown under the bus for subversiveness or to prop up the character with the loudest fanbase or a Creator’s Pet.