TBC was the true beginning of the end for WoW.
10/28/2018 11:26 PMPosted by Eilethalua10/28/2018 11:04 AMPosted by LightelfKael'thas' fate is still the absolute worst, most left-field lore move they've ever made.
I love Burning Crusade game-wise, but I actually agree that in terms of actual lore, when they added the Isle of Quel'danis and, oh, surprise, Kael'thas isn't dead
Just as a point of accuracy, "Kael'thas was maimed but isn't actually dead" is something A'dal announced immediately to anyone turning in the "defeated Kael'thas in Tempest Keep" quest to it. Immediately followed by Kael'thas shouting at everyone in Shattrath City, "Your monkeys failed to finish the job, naaru!"
(And no i in Quel'danas. Wouldn't post for just this, but since I'm posting anyway.)
IMO:
MoP, it just doesn't match.
Legion, it was too predictable. Here Legion invades, here we defeat Legion. Didn't like how they retconned Illidan too. WotLK was technically the same, but at least it had Arthas and a nice Ulduar offstory.
MoP, it just doesn't match.
Legion, it was too predictable. Here Legion invades, here we defeat Legion. Didn't like how they retconned Illidan too. WotLK was technically the same, but at least it had Arthas and a nice Ulduar offstory.
10/29/2018 02:50 AMPosted by Kiyrin10/29/2018 02:09 AMPosted by WynIn a weird way, BfA lore feels like a more logical progression from Vanilla; a more natural continuation of what should have remained the core tension in WoW i.e. Alliance vs Horde conflict.
Imagine if Bliz had kept Vanilla larger game designs in place and had simply extended it with new terroritories to quest and fight in in Zuldazar and Kul Tiras.
But... outside of battlegrounds, Vanilla had barely anything to do with Alliance versus Horde. The whole faction conflict thing didn't really become a central focus of WoW until Wrathgate.
And with how often the factions have had to work together to overcome world-ending threats - which culminates in the factions being melded together in class order halls in "Legion" (except not, because reasons) - the faction conflict makes very little sense now, except for Sylvanas wanting to kill everybody... except most of the Horde leaders wouldn't back that at all, much like they wouldn't back Garrosh.
Hmmm I saw the faction conflict as being prominent during the vanilla era. Many areas had quests that were directly related to horde vs alliance..and the questing zones past level 20 were setup in such a fashion that the two factions would inevitably clash. BGs weren't exactly a small part of the game either for that matter. Honestly I am not sure how you drew that conclusion even if you were on a PvE server.
10/28/2018 11:53 AMPosted by ArtwairMost certainly Warlords of Draenor... time travel is silly in most sci if setting and has no place in a high fantasy setting.
Time travel can be effective when the story is built around it (properly).
Which isn't what happened with WoD.
What happened instead was "let's make an alternate timeline so we can do whatever we want in it without any real consequences." It's second only to the "tournament arc" in terms of pointless filler.
The only real effect the WoD timeline had on the setting as a whole was bringing Gul'dan back. So he could die again next expansion.
10/29/2018 06:34 PMPosted by Ekhana10/28/2018 11:53 AMPosted by ArtwairMost certainly Warlords of Draenor... time travel is silly in most sci if setting and has no place in a high fantasy setting.
"let's make an alternate timeline so we can do whatever we want in it without any real consequences."
I think of it more like: "let's try to bring old players back into the game by using many characters they like and introducing that part of the lore to others who are not familiar with it since the Warcraft movie is around the corner".
It actually worked and the game sold extremely well. But since the game is not close to what it was, people left just as quick.
WoD's story was mega cringe for the reasons already expressed...
but Cata's drove me nuts for one reason:
It's established in Vanilla, that Blackrock Mountain isn't a tea party of BFFs.... The Dark Irons w/ Fire Elementals under Ragnaros are AT WAR with the Dark Horde/Black Dragonflight under Nefarian.
In Cata, the very first thing Deathwing does for most players while leveling, is summon Ragnaros, his BFF... it always annoyed me that there was this massive retcon of 2 factions at war with one another, and now suddenly all friendly.
It's one thing WotLK, for example, actually got right..... The trolls and the scourge where at war. You saw the two factions fight, and the trolls basically get crushed. The Scourge and the dragons where also at war... The dragons where at war among themselves. Renegade factions of humans where under demonic influence kind of against/monitoring all of it... and the scourge and forces under Yogg where at war with one another too.
The lore imo works best when seperate rival factions in the story stay consistently separate and rival to one another, rather than just randomly banding together like a power ranger giant robot the way they did in Cata.
but Cata's drove me nuts for one reason:
It's established in Vanilla, that Blackrock Mountain isn't a tea party of BFFs.... The Dark Irons w/ Fire Elementals under Ragnaros are AT WAR with the Dark Horde/Black Dragonflight under Nefarian.
In Cata, the very first thing Deathwing does for most players while leveling, is summon Ragnaros, his BFF... it always annoyed me that there was this massive retcon of 2 factions at war with one another, and now suddenly all friendly.
It's one thing WotLK, for example, actually got right..... The trolls and the scourge where at war. You saw the two factions fight, and the trolls basically get crushed. The Scourge and the dragons where also at war... The dragons where at war among themselves. Renegade factions of humans where under demonic influence kind of against/monitoring all of it... and the scourge and forces under Yogg where at war with one another too.
The lore imo works best when seperate rival factions in the story stay consistently separate and rival to one another, rather than just randomly banding together like a power ranger giant robot the way they did in Cata.
10/28/2018 10:49 AMPosted by ShendalarWoD - time travel is almost always stupid as a plot device; and they took it way too far. Made a complete mess of everything.
They attempted to bring back TBC lore, it just failed really hard.
10/29/2018 06:34 PMPosted by Ekhana10/28/2018 11:53 AMPosted by ArtwairMost certainly Warlords of Draenor... time travel is silly in most sci if setting and has no place in a high fantasy setting.
Time travel can be effective when the story is built around it (properly).
Which isn't what happened with WoD.
What happened instead was "let's make an alternate timeline so we can do whatever we want in it without any real consequences." It's second only to the "tournament arc" in terms of pointless filler.
The only real effect the WoD timeline had on the setting as a whole was bringing Gul'dan back. So he could die again next expansion.
Yes setting up a whole other expansion and then creating ties with another faction of orcs to bolster the forces of the horde is no consequence...
Also anyone saying BFA is an idiot, you have not even gotten close to the halfway point in the story so you are extremely premature in passing judgment.
Also broze dragons have been in the game with time magic since wc3... so time travel is very much within the realm of warcraft.
Oh and in Cataclysm deathwing was working with the elemental lords because at that point he was corrupted by the old gods and the elementals are servants of the old gods.
So many people in this thread who pass judgment on lore they dont know.
Personally I think each expansion has had good and bad elements to its story telling.
Do we judge based on the story blizzard tried to tell (through expanded works short stories, novellas etc) or puely based on the in game experiences?
Vanilla has some awesome little story nuggets
Mankrik I came to the Crossroads from the south seeking help, <class>, but I find only cowards who turn their backs on me -- even the mighty Thork insults me so. He is a good leader, but his dismissal of my plea causes me greater anger.
He claims my rage makes me hasty -- that it clouds my judgement -- but I will not rest until I have vengeance!.
Bring on classic
Do we judge based on the story blizzard tried to tell (through expanded works short stories, novellas etc) or puely based on the in game experiences?
Vanilla has some awesome little story nuggets
Mankrik I came to the Crossroads from the south seeking help, <class>, but I find only cowards who turn their backs on me -- even the mighty Thork insults me so. He is a good leader, but his dismissal of my plea causes me greater anger.
He claims my rage makes me hasty -- that it clouds my judgement -- but I will not rest until I have vengeance!.
Bring on classic
WoD was absolutely atrocious.
10/29/2018 06:11 AMPosted by VictorlawTBC was the true beginning of the end for WoW.
While I "somewhat" agree with you, this comment has no place in this thread. The question was 'Which WoW expansion has the worst lore?'. This is not answer to that question, it's just....like... you're opinion, man.
I'm going to sort of change my vote to Legion, because another comment reminded me of something most people hated so much it has been "forgotten":
Xe'ra, the suppose Prime Naaru, dragging us through her teenage diaries about her crush on sweet misunderstood Illidan.
(And, separately, that abomination called Nomi used to connect Legion with MoP and a race who were supposed to be fantastic chefs. WHY?! Though, thankfully, Nomi is neither lore nor story by any stretch of the imagination.)
Xe'ra, the suppose Prime Naaru, dragging us through her teenage diaries about her crush on sweet misunderstood Illidan.
(And, separately, that abomination called Nomi used to connect Legion with MoP and a race who were supposed to be fantastic chefs. WHY?! Though, thankfully, Nomi is neither lore nor story by any stretch of the imagination.)
The second your story enters alternate dimension garbage is when your lore is lacking in the basics.
So my vote easily goes to WoD.
Cataclysm was actually pretty damn good, with the whole end of the world thing aside, it was easily the most faithful expansion in giving almost all playable races an advancement in their story.
So my vote easily goes to WoD.
Cataclysm was actually pretty damn good, with the whole end of the world thing aside, it was easily the most faithful expansion in giving almost all playable races an advancement in their story.
I've found it's more fun to roleplay and make up your own story because what the game has to offer in lore is just...not it.
I prefer smaller scope threats, like the defias in westfall.
I prefer smaller scope threats, like the defias in westfall.
WoD is also my vote/opinion, but for different reasons. When it was being developed and I first realized it was going to involve time travel and going to Draenor, I was ecstatic. When it was finally released, the execution was terrible. I love games that get time travel right, like Chrono Trigger, for example. The fact that they went for a whole "alternate timeline" thing was the complete opposite of what I wanted out of the expansion.10/28/2018 10:49 AMPosted by ShendalarWoD - time travel is almost always stupid as a plot device; and they took it way too far. Made a complete mess of everything.
10/28/2018 12:03 PMPosted by KelzarSo while some of them have story elements that people might not like every expansion other than vanilla had an overarching story except vanilla.
It's like, in Vanilla, you were just an adventurer who was supposed to make your own story, while bearing witness to various threads of lore in a huge, multi-faceted world.
Everything since Vanilla, is just "kill the things so you can kill the Big Bad"
I guess I'd have to say TBC is the worst, because it set us on this path of a single "Main Story" for EVERY expansion.
10/29/2018 09:29 PMPosted by Throwback10/29/2018 06:11 AMPosted by VictorlawTBC was the true beginning of the end for WoW.
While I "somewhat" agree with you, this comment has no place in this thread. The question was 'Which WoW expansion has the worst lore?'. This is not answer to that question, it's just....like... you're opinion, man.
I consider lore to be just as important as gameplay.
So, yeah. My opinion stands.
I think it has to be BC or WoD. WoD might get a partial pass for taking place in an alternate reality where things aren't QUITE identical to the main reality's history. It's still a worse overall expansion due to lack of content/quality content though.
Both BC and WoD suffer from story problems. The Illidari faction was always somewhat evil and ruthless, but BC offers poor reason for us wanting to kill them off aside from the need for raid bosses. Illidan himself was completely wasted, Blizz realized this pretty quickly and tried bringing him back and explaining him better in Legion, semi-successfully IMO.
WoD was just half-assed in all respects except visually. We did get some great Arakockra lore even if the 'threat' of the Iron Horde.
In BFA, while the main Faction War story is garbage, but individual zone lore is strong... well, Drustvar is strong, but the other five zones are still good.
Both BC and WoD suffer from story problems. The Illidari faction was always somewhat evil and ruthless, but BC offers poor reason for us wanting to kill them off aside from the need for raid bosses. Illidan himself was completely wasted, Blizz realized this pretty quickly and tried bringing him back and explaining him better in Legion, semi-successfully IMO.
WoD was just half-assed in all respects except visually. We did get some great Arakockra lore even if the 'threat' of the Iron Horde.
In BFA, while the main Faction War story is garbage, but individual zone lore is strong... well, Drustvar is strong, but the other five zones are still good.
Mists of Pandaria by far. That sha thing and ninja stuff is pure garbage and doesnât belong in Warcraft universe.
Cataclysm could have been played out a lot better. Deathwing fight was a nail in the coffin. Everyone expected s least an epic battle with a corrupted Aspect of Earth, and ended up killing tentacles for 2 fights. The huge dragon was a bunch of tentacles, no joke.
Cataclysm could have been played out a lot better. Deathwing fight was a nail in the coffin. Everyone expected s least an epic battle with a corrupted Aspect of Earth, and ended up killing tentacles for 2 fights. The huge dragon was a bunch of tentacles, no joke.