After the Horde burned Teldrassil I expected the Night Elves dig themselves out of victims status by heroically taking their lands back, punish the Horde and then pursue Sylvanas and take their revenge by putting another warchief’s head on a pike for their crimes.
Then go and rebuild their home after the baddies got theirs.
Instead I got a Horde identity crisis we had to help with and became Sylvanas therapists.
Not ideal. Not worth.
And now Forsaken are moving back home and Night Elves got an almond with NE souls used as fertilizer.
Whoopie what a conclusion.
I read in a psycological study:
(https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0361684319871913)
that men do not respect women that they sexual objectify and I think that came into play a lot in BFA with how hated Sylvanas was. Was she all that different? no. not until the Loyalist epilogue but still people bend over backwards to justify hating her like she was this boogieman.
I partially blame Golden for Elegy for writing Sylvanas as this “boogieman” type character haunting the Alliance. But that was entirely propoganda and poetic writing. I think there’s a lot of guys in this forum that sexualize her and hate her for having a personality. That’s the simple and more logical answer.
Many male players chose Saurfang purely motivated for domination, subliminal or otherwise.
Sylvanas did an evil thing, thats why she was hated.
When you went by the name of Luxio you said she was right to kill the NEs and at the end she will be proved to have been right to do it.
You have since then calmed down.
Saurfang represents the original WC3 Horde.
“Yeah we made mistakes but we are going to do better now”
Problem is that he is a hypocrite, doens’t make sense given the context and this is the 3rd or 4th time we are doing this.
This is a really simple situation Ren… I don’t know why you are complicated it… Like what does Saurfang even has to do with domination? Isn’t the Jailer and his whole shtick domination? Sylvanas was the one dominating her subjects and victims for her own designs. So she fits the domination issue more than Saurfang does.
you should read the study I linked it has a lot of interesting data.
If you take this study and you apply it to how we suspect Afrasabi sabatoged Sylvanas’s arc as a way to re-establish dominance, the study says something similar " in both interpersonal and organizational contexts, sexual harassment was most prevalent against uppity women who showed assertiveness and independence, reflecting the harasser’s desire to put these women “back in place” "
If you choose Saurfang, you sided with Afrasabi and his team of sexual deviants. Whether you were duped into choosing that or not, you chose that option because it’s the one that subliminally appealled to you.
This sexual harassment suit at Blizzard hangs over Shadowlands like Arthas’s fart cloud. And yes it absolutely reflected itself in the BFA to Shadowlands narratives. at the end of the day they pit a respected man against a resepcted woman and asked us, Horde, to choose a side.
You are Alliance so you didn’t have much of a choice, but the way you contiously defend Saurfang, makes me suspect that you are not an outlier, you bought into this subliminal messaging.
Before we had any idea of this harassment suit at Blizzard, at the start of BFA ya’ll harrassed Sylvanas fans saying “wow this story reeks of mysogyny” right out the fanbase. When this harassment case came out against all the Blizzard top brass, we were justified in our intitial assesment of BFA.
Battle for Azeroth Horde civil war was misogynistic. That is an established fact.
Given the Sylvanas book wrote Stormheim as all for the Jailer and Sylvanas herself at her sentencing said her actions did not merit loyalty, the notion does not appear to be within the story.
When I have some time sure but I have no qualms in stopping and putting a swift end to someone that killed a lot of women and children.
No qualms at all.
As for Saurfang, after his assistance he goes into a hole and we lock him away forever.
I don’t think these are hot takes and regardless of the source of the story these are the decisions that my own morals lead me down towards. I don’t care its a she or he.
They killed kids. Women, children and men all for their own goals and ego. Nope. that is just not ok in my book.
Then you should not be justifying any Alliance leader as they have all done the same. They have all killed innocent children, women and men.
Saurfang killed human babies. He graphically remembers getting a sick thrill over it in A Good War, then feels bad about it.
If your morals don’t have equity than I am in the right to judge them. If you actively condemn a woman and not a man who has done the same thing it’s cause for concern. It paints you as someone who hates women.
Most people see that Saurfang and Sylvanas commited the same crimes. He was remorseful and was instantly forgiven… on the other hand she is remorseful and has to crawl through the Maw on her hands and knees begging for forgiveness and only maybe will she be forgiven. You don’t see the inequity here?
You don’t see the power imbalance? The gender based violence? The re-establishment of male dominance?
Can you name the specific events?
Teldrassil… the fight was over, the tree was at their mercy and the Horde + Sylvanas killed them all anyway.
She started a war to gain power from the Maw and the jailer. You have any comparable examples that I am not identifying?
He not only killed humans but Draenei as well.
He blames it on the demon blood that clouded his judgment and psyche… but after following both Garrosh and Sylvanas he has no excuses.
I condem both of them. Where do you see me praising Saurfang?
You are back to old talking points trying to paint anyone who does not like Sylvanas as some sort of mysogonist.
If I hated women why would I want Tyrande to be the one as the executioner of both Sylvanas AND Saurfang?
Let a Night Elf give him the death he wants and the vengeance that Sylvanas deserves to get.
Because he kind of lack free will. kina…
She was completely unapologetic, had free will and she only turned against the jailer because she learned she was going to be serving just like the rest of us.
Her remorse came from having her part of her old personality back.
I think you have a character that you deeply care about and want others to care about her too so you are resorting to these methods to change opinions. Maybe I am wrong but that is my interpretation.
Now I think you are just inserting other issues that have no relevance to make your argument more legitimate. Or maybe you are internalizing issues and projecting them here.
Sylvanas did bad to NEs and Tyrande is justified to bash her face in.
Saurfang did bad to the NEs and Tyrande is justified to bash his face in.
And the Horde did bad for enabling these two psychopaths instead of throwing them in a loony bin before they hurt somebody.
I feel like this is interesting when constantly skirting around Sylvannas committing genocide on a female dominant race and how hard the narrative in SL tried to make Tyrande look unreasonably bad, like some crazy woman stereotype, regardless of her established lore.
Seems kinda interesting when sexism is brought up it only ends at defending Sylvannas or demanding justice for her character, not the female dominate race blizz humiliated FOR HER STORY, ignoring most of their established strength and abilities because they wanted to genocide the female power race.
A part about Elune being onto their plan or something at the end, I think. Granted she would need to be getting external power in a consistent setting anyways to be able to fight Malfurion cause of how absurd his power is. Especially on undead. Mans unironically killed some of the strongest mages in the ancient world while sleeping, she kinda needed something like Zo’vaal… or plot armor.
People always come out of the woodwork to prop Tyrande and the NE’s as distraction from talking about the sexism towards Sylvanas, as a diversion tactic, one you have clearly cultivated many times to silence others.
They can co-exist and are not mutually exclusive. You can be upset the narrative treated Tyrande and the NE’s in a sexist way, you should be equally mad the narrative treated Sylvanas in a sexist way. Victimizing women and vilifying them both root in sexism, but have a different sting though. In the end Tyrande regained her personal power, Sylvanas didn’t.
If you want to argue Sylvanas, the character, was made to play the role of a villain that had little to no justifications for her actions as a sexist ploy by some writers?
Fine. You may have a point.
But the story, standing on its own and being analyzed on its owm merits they made Sylvanas a reprehensible person. Women can be evil too. Women can be despicable bastards too in a story.
And they could be justifiably hated by the audience to claim otherwise is sexist as well.
The problem with Sylvanas is the same problem of a bad character in a bad D&D game. The DM is desperate to make the players think his favorite character is super cool but the players just want to kill her and move on in the campaign.
And as the DM tries more and more ideas to make the character “cooler” the more frustrated the players become with the DM.
Your argument that Sylvanas is a deplorable person may hold weight if she wasn’t canonically manipulated and coersed to do evil by the Jailer, a man who essentially used her to feed his own ends of domination and supremacy.
She was villified and victimized in this narrative. And that’s sexist af. You continuing to downplay and distract proves to me you are sexist.
Just wanna apologize about yesterday regarding sylvanas. I should elaborate more. I like the character in the same way I like arthas. Both are great characters who done horrible things, and it’s okay to view them through that particular lense.
You love the character, the same way I love Greymane. We’re both going to try justify each character’s actions and that’s great.
Anyway, sorry if I was giving a different impression yesterday
