As noted previously, all systems can be gamed by a dedicated cabal. DKP was how most of my guilds worked back when I raided, and I can tell you every one of my fellow mages would conspire to keep trinkets, rings, and necks away from locks, boomkins, or ele shamans that tried to encroach on “our” items.
No system is safe from gamesmanship, and dkp or epgp is no better than loot council if mismanaged.
The IDEAL system would be some kind of loot council… possibly with an internal (hidden) DKP system helping to advise the members. It lets people use common sense as they try to spot guild needs and spread the loot out.
Of course, that really depends on the neutrality of the council members. If you have solid leadership at the top keeping an eye on things so nobody can get greedy, then it’ll work. If not, then it likely won’t.
I’ve been in a guild with a small council that included 4 officers (tank, healer, ranged, and melee leads), one non-officer (who changed weekly), and the GM who only had veto power. It worked pretty well IMO.
The next best system is probably DKP with anti-hoarding rules. It’s tough to stop players from trying to game the system, or snubbing small upgrades that end up getting sharded when they could help the guild.
Very true but some systems are less vulnerable to abuse than others.
It’s a lot harder to game DKP. Guild leaders would have to literally masterloot to themselves (risking a GM ticket) or abuse the DKP system (risking an exodus from the guild).
The thing about DKP systems is that the point systems and bidding are almost always public, meaning that tampering them is evident to everyone in the guild. LC decisions, however, are usually opaque which makes it easier to hide the corrupting influence.
I am running a raiding guild. My wife and my irl best friend are officers. We could abuse the heck out of a LC system if we wanted but the reality is that I respect the contributions of everyone in the guild (all adults) too much to presume that I can treat them like children and decide who gets the toys and when.
This has to be where the GM gets involved and tells said player that this upgrade that he/she refused would help the guild and should be taken. This is one method to identify the miscreants in the guild. After all it is the GM who puts out raid invites right?
Would love to find that as well. There’s a difference between knowing you are top of the list if that item you really want drops…and winning a roll to get it. Adds a second adrenaline rush there…first seeing the item…then the roll. That part can be hilarious also… laugh at the other warlock that rolled a 4 for nef’s tear, just to see him win with that roll. On the flip side roll that 100 to win it for yourself. So much fun.
But now you’re back to putting power into the hands of a few people or a single person… which is the fundamental issue with a loot council system.
Yep, but this is not about awarding a piece of gear to a favorite, it’s about improving someone who is holding out for the 1/2000 drop. And as raid leader/GM if this person would not see that the good of the guild is more important, then raid invites would likely pass them by.
There are systems in place that penalize DKP hoarding.
Neither is a loot council unless its members are corrupt.
Well I will admit to ignorance here since the last serious raiding I did was in Firelands.
3 potential abuses that a currency-based system needs to deal with: hoarding, bid collusion and bid shilling. It’s why I am kind of excited about Shroud DKP because all 3 of those problems are addressed. I am curious to see if players can come up with new creative ways to game the system.
I’ve had experience with all of them and the only thing I can say is
None of them are perfect and people will find a way to abuse them regardless. IN the end a well lead loot council will get loot to where it needs to be better than other systems.
I prefer ninja style! Lol no, personally I have had great success with loot council. EpGp wasn’t that what is also gold dkp? If so we used that mainly to farm gold after we were already geared. If that’s not then I honestly can’t remember what it is.
My guild used a combination of DKP and loot Council. Loot council only step in when it is a legendary item involved. Only drama we had with this system was during sunwell when we had our second Starfury bow dropped. The loot council decided to gave it to our number one dps rogue who has been with our guild since vanilla. The hunter who was next inline on DKP only been with us for 1-2 month(basically a trial, new recruit) He got so upset and gquit right after. Funny thing is the following week, it dropped again and it went to the next hunter who was ok for us to gave the bow to the rogue. Pure DKP just won't work for items like hand of rag, TF or rare drop like corrupted Ashbringer.That’s not what I said at all, actually.
I said Loot Council is the best system in a good guild, and the worst system in a bad guild. That doesn’t mean that Loot Council is inherently good. It means it’s almost entirely dependent on the quality of the guild.
Loot Council is flawed insofar as people are flawed, and people run Loot Council. Just like a weapon, it can only do harm in the wrong hands. The weapon is not to blame for the way it is wielded by its user.
Sure, but that’s still a problem with the person, not the system itself. “Runs a great risk of corrupting” does not mean “corrupts.”
Exactly.
That’s a fair point, but it doesn’t actually disprove anything I said.
Only a bad guild would abuse the system. Whether or not it’s immediately apparent if the guild is bad is a different matter.
Personally speaking, I’d never join a guild with DKP or /roll to distribute loot. While they might not be bad guilds, they’ll never be as good as guilds with Loot Council can be.
Flawed insofar as they can be corrupt, not that they are corrupt.
Not every operator of Loot Council will end up abusing the system.
Okay. So what if the whole raid is the Loot Council, and the decisions are made with everyone?
Or what if the council is rotated so the same people aren’t in charge of it each time?
I don’t actually think the flaw with DKP is that it can be gamed.
Even if DKP isn’t being gamed, it causes problems for the guild.
Exactly.
Correct.
If you’re asking what the best loot system is, I’d say Loot Council every time for this reason. No other system can help the guild more than Loot Council. I care more about the guild’s progress than my own gearing.
Agreed, but my issue with LC is this - no matter how well led, there will always be Joe Warlock who is #20 on the the Recount list who thinks that the loot is being unfairly distributed. It doesn’t matter if he is wrong, it’s just that he thinks he is being treated unfairly. Dkp in one form or the other doesn’t have this particular problem.
So your problem is some entitled Warlock who sucks at the game is complaining he rightfully isn’t being awarded gear?
I’m more concerned with if the loot is actually being distributed unfairly, not whether someone feels like it is.
Facts over feelings.
Ya imo Loot council is a tool and in itself isn’t what’s wrong. It’s the people leading and using it. Same can be said of any tool ever created.
But you’re talking about a 40 man raid. Feelings are facts for many of the people who are consistently watching loot go out to people that they “feel” are favorites