It matters because ‘go die in a ditch’ and ‘we’ll see what happens’ are two decidedly difference statements. And your evidence that Tyrande was throwing them to some horrible risk seems lacking when Thalryssa was making that same choice without apparent worry.
They are definitely impaired. Their judgment is impaired by their withered state. And you’re trying to revoke their personhood to defend your hypocrisy.
They are both means of keeping them uncontrollable impulses in control. Quite equivalent.
Let’s be honest, they face equivalent risk as any Nightborne civilian that the Night Elves advocate putting on the field. There’s no significant difference between Thalryssa throwing them out there and Tyrande wanting the Nightborne civlians to fight.
just wanted to say something really quick,since i feel like this is directed to me, i don’t think that you are a bad person for having different tastes, in fact, i detest when people call “fanboi” or “edgelords” to people who don’t they don’t know.
that is disrespectful. you can search my post history, i never insulted players personally, i mean yeah, i have a deep hate for the horde, but never their players. and i don’t think that they are bad persons
i want that the alliance goes full villain on the horde as well because that would be fun. since is just fantasy. but i consider myself a normal person in real life. and of course that i am totally against any of those things happening in real life.
Nothing more, salute!
What Thalyssra decides to do and Tyrande’s treatment of the Nightborne do not correlate with each other, sorry to say.
I will not argue with you on this cause this point has been rendered moot by the last point I made in my last post.
No, being used as a meatshield over being trained and prepared to fight a threat are two different things. Tyrande does not speak of sending trained soldiers to fight, she speaks of using Nightborne civilians as cannon-fodder. Whereas the Nightfallen are trained, prepared and given every chance to survive the fights they are being sent into. They are trained in the Withered Army Training WQ to become more capable fighters and are trained to withstand the fel so that the Fel’dorei do not just blast the into smithereens. So no, they aren’t just thrown into the demons’ maw, they are prepared and trained to fight by Thalyssra, Oculeth and the Heroes.
Easy to claim that everything was a fallacy when you have no more arguments to turn to.
I’ve been reading this thread with silent amusement, but I wanted to chime in on something.
Things you would know if you had read it:
Calia isn’t a member of the Alliance, she’s a neutral priest.
No member of the Alliance supported her actions.
There was no real coup attempt. She encouraged defectors.
Sylvanas explicitly wants a war in order to invade Stormwind and raise their fallen as Forsaken. We are made aware of this fact in the first few chapters.
While she is not happy about Stormheim, it’s never suggested as a reason she wants a war with the Alliance.
One of the reasons she agrees to the gathering is that if successful it could lead to her undead spies being freely accepted into Stormwind. Thus making it easier to kill them all.
Apologies if these things have been mentioned in later posts.
I’ll give Sylvanas this, she did mention it to Saurfang, what I want to know is if she mentioned to Saurfang that she was actually there to try and enslave a Val’kyr. Considering Baine’s disgust with the whole Tandred enslavement thing I am guessing they do not know!
“Neutral”, except for she hangs out with the Alliance leadership, makes plans with them, and is ultimately resurrected by the Alliance High King. You know…“neutral.”
Which actions? The only action they didn’t support was her calling for the Forsaken to join her. Which they didn’t know about. But they supported her being there, for example.
Calling the current government illegitimate and declaring yourself the rightful head of state is the definition of a coup attempt. I agree that it was pretty half-assed, though.
True! Golden decided to give Sylvie a real hate-b***r for Stormwind!
False! Unless you meant that it is never suggested in BtS. But in “A Good War”,Stormheim is not just suggested, it is directly cited by Sylvanas as a primary reason to strike at the Alliance, and it is in fact the reason that gets Saurfang onboard with the mission.
Also because 200 goblins is a drop in the bucket. 200 elves is a big dent. Goblins reproduce quickly and rebuild even faster.
The leading cause of goblin death: Self-destruction.
The leading cause of night elf death: The Horde.
It’s relative to the populations in question, and pretending it isn’t is fallacious. It’s the difference between opening hunting season on an highly pervasive, invasive species and opening it on wild pandas.
She explicitly says she is not a member of the Alliance and calls herself a member of the Netherlight Temple. She says this to Anduin.
The fact that she is not a citizen of the Alliance is how Sylvanas gets away with killing her.
Per the terms set by Sylvanas a priest of the Conclave would be selected by Archbishop Faol to assist Anduin with interviewing the human candidates for the gathering.
Per the terms set by Sylvanas a member of the Conclave selected by Archbishop Faol would assist on the field during the meeting.
She was resurrected by Anduin, the Archbishop and a naaru. Two of those are clearly not members of the Alliance and only the naaru actually knew what they were doing.
They supported her being there as Archbishop Faol’s assistant.
You know which actions I mean.
I don’t remember her calling Sylvanas am illegitimate leader. Don’t have the time to double check right now.
It didn’t strike me as particularly hateful. She just wants more Forsaken.
Well I did respond to someone saying that they had never read Before the Storm and call it things he would know if he had…
I just got off of my muted status, guess Blizz is quick to play white knight, but not so quick when it comes to fixing bugs. Anyhow:
Calia was there for the Alliance side, Anduin had her there, anything she does and anything that she caused can be blamed on the alliance leadership for allowing her to go to this meeting.
No, but they still allowed her to go there, Anduin didn’t support Stormheim, but Genn is not punished for it. Anduin does not support what happens in Dazar’alor, yet Shaw and Genn aren’t punished, ANduin doesn’t support the Darkshore Warfront, but Tyrande and Genn get to do whatever they like and I am 99% sure that Anduin would not have supported Tyrande’s mistreatment of the Nightborne, but she isn’t punished.
She encouraged defectors = Literally a coup to overthrow Sylvanas.
4.+5. In the Good War novel it is actually stated as the reason why Sylvanas wants to invade Stormwind and raise them as Undead.
You mean like Shaw has his SI:7 everywhere?
She was still there under the Alliance banner, luckily Sylvanas knew that she wasn’t exactly a member of the Alliance, so she allowed the actual Alliance to escape and kills traitors and those who support them. A action for which she is demonized to this day for.
Yep.
Yeah, one would expect a NEUTRAL Priest of the conclave, not a coup-staging dumbass.
Same as above.
Anduin STILL aided in her ressurection, when the fact is that she should remain dead as punishment for her attempt at overthrowing Sylvanas.
I haven’t read the book yet, but I did hear that Anduin did not think Calia going there was a smart idea, correct me if I am wrong. Again proof that Anduin has no control over the Alliance.
She encouraged traitors to join the Alliance and betray the Horde, again a coup attempt.
Yeah, rightfully so, seeing how Genn stiffed her out of a way to make her people and herself immortal.
I haven’t read it, but I did read ‘A Good War’ so even I know that claiming that Stormheim was not a factor that started this war is generally dumb, just because Golden neglected to mention it because of her fan-fiction tier writing.
Calia definitely calls her a false queen. I’m not on my computer and the kindle app on my phone is shaky. Maybe I’ll find the quote tomorrow if I remember.
Though this is true, I can still understand some of the complaints about her “being Alliance”. She may not be, but she is a very “Alliance-coded” character, if that’s an agreeable term.
They allowed her to go as a priest of the Conclave approved by Archbishop Faol. She was not representing the Alliance.
If you read BtS you’d know that Genn and Rodgers both got a good scolding for Stormheim. That’s serious. The Horde is probably going to get the same for the whole war.
The rest has nothing to do with BtS and I’m not going to start a never ending debate.
She encouraged a handful of people who wanted to live with their human relatives to seek asylum with the Alliance.
No it isn’t.
Even if it was that has nothing to do with Before the Storm and it’s contents.
No.
Shaws spies are there to dissuade the Horde from misbehaving and they have to work for it.
Sylvanas hopes that her people will be welcomed with open arms as loving relatives so she can use them to sabotage the city and prime Stormwind for an attack.
Once again, this is a list of facts.
You don’t have to like them… But perhaps you should read the book before arguing they are not true.
Calia is a neutral priest of the Conclave.
She was there as a priest of the Conclave.
Not as a member of the Alliance. She isn’t.
Not as a guest of the Alliance. She wasn’t.
Priest.
Conclave.
Full stop.
Anduin worried her presence could be misunderstood, he did not worry she would go full crazy. He agreed to have her there out of sympathy. She wanted to find out if her likely dead family was among the undead.
Once again.
Calia is not a member of the Alliance.
Archbishop Faol is not a member of the Alliance.
Read the book before you argue what’s inside of it.
Leaving a nation and seeking citizenship elsewhere is not a betrayal, it doesn’t make you a traitor and it doesn’t mean you are part of a coup.
Assumption.
She may have intended to use Eyir to assist with the raising of Stormwind. In Before the Storm she talks about it like a goal she’s had for a long time.
Or… here’s a crazy idea… maybe Sylvanas manipulating Saurfang into a war is Sylvanas manipulating Saurfang into a war?
Stormheim is mentioned in Before the Storm. It’s something that ticks her off. But raising Stormwind is the reason given for her desire to go to war. Not Genn. Not Stormheim.
Where do you think Calia intended to take the Undercity refugees? Alliance territories and holdings, perhaps?
Whether or not she was a member of the Alliance is irrelevant. Her actions directly implicated the Alliance, unless you’d like to make the claim that Anduin would have turned them away.
I mean, with the war against the Legion being over there’s quite a bit of free real estate now. She could take them pretty much anywhere.
Like the priest class hall, for instance. Or Dalaran. Or the Argent Crusade/Silver Hand. Get Dalaran mages to lift Sorrow Hill in the skies and make it a floating free non-Sylvanas undead city. Maybe just go off on her own, find the fabled GM Island and settle there secluded from everyone. Hell, who knows, maybe the Ebon Blade wouldn’t mind taking in some undead refugees with no home left. She’s got options other than the Alliance.
Now chances are she was taking them to Anduin, because Stupid Good tropes being pushed by Blizzard and, well, they’re effectively dissidents and it’s not entirely 100% illogical to think that they’d probably be somewhat safer in the arms of the enemies of the Horde (yeah they died before that hypothetical point, minor little detail, who cares it’s theory crafting). We’re talking about the writers who made Jaina sad over the Zandalari being sad at the death of Rastakhan, the bar isn’t exactly set high here.
The hilarious thing is that if it were a genuine coup attempt, it’d put the lie to claims that there can never be reconciliation between the Forsaken and Alliance, because it would mean that the Alliance wants their undead brethren back so much that they fabricated this fantastically circuitous plan for Calia to steal them away from Sylvanas.
It doesn’t matter what she intended to do with them. It doesn’t matter what the Alliance would have allowed her to do with them. She is not a member of the Alliance. This isn’t speculation. It’s a fact.
How do we know they were civilians and innocent socialites? For all you know, they could have been a bunch of conscripted Horde soldiers that have had a history of Alliance blood on their hands… taking a mild reprieve after some campaigns of successful Alliance slaughter. After all, they comprise some of the Horde’s most active races in the faction war so it would make sense.
Even if that isn’t the case, who cares? Void Elves are supposed to be the Alliance’s dark side and I think people don’t care because that’s what they expect the race to do. You apparently rolled a Forsaken as your main and you don’t cry much about what they do, so what’s it to you?
