Where I Think Classes Went Wrong


#33

A Druids Nature’s Cure says you’re wrong, and have been for many expansions. A Shaman’s Purify Spirit would like to discuss a few things when you’re done there.


(Tyándra) #34

I think it’s a change in design perspective.

Classic: They designed the classes from a fantasy perspective, thinking ‘what abilities would this class have?’ and then added them, gameplay be damned.

These days, they design classes from a number crunch and balance and gameplay style perspective, and as such, lose any shred of flavor for them.

They don’t feel like an RPG class, but a tool, because that’s how they’re being designed these days.

“This class will have a whack-a-mole RNG proc playstyle, which sets it apart from this other class which will have a build-and-spender playstyle. Isn’t this fun guys?!”

Puke.


#35

It’s primarily from a “Role” perspective.

Healers all have a Magic removal capability, at least one HoT, at least one instant direct heal, at least one Cast Time heal, at least one AOE heal, and a damage mitigation/protection cooldown.

Tanks all have a Taunt, weak ranged attack, AOE threat generator attack, a direct cooldown or charge based single target attack, etc.


#36

Rotation and homogenization are distinct.

Homogenization is lack of noticeable difference between classes. Giving Paladins to Horde and Shaman to Alliance is one example.

Giving Shaman lust to mages and hunter pets and scrolls is another.

Disarm, Mortal Strike effects, Execute, Fear Ward, hard spammable Cc, the list goes on.

Every class in Retail is basically the same as every other class with far less distinctiveness.


(Kelzar) #37

If you honestly believe that you are not being objective.


(Tyándra) #38

This happened to dungeon keeper as well.

In the first dungeon keeper they designed all creatures from a natural perspective, giving them abilities and stats that made them feel like an actual creature. It was then up to you to utilize them in ways you best saw fit.

In dungeon keeper 2, they designed creatures from a roles perspective: this one is a blocker, this one is a dps, etc. And as a result, the creatures feel like gears, tools, rather than actual creatures.

It’s the sort of terrible design you get when you let competitive players balance and design your game. They are blinded by a pursuit for perfect balance, but that’s not what makes a game good or fun.


#39

It became the norm when Blizzard decided in Wrath that levelling was not content, it was just introduction to the new raiding tier’s lore.


#40

If you honestly believe classes are distinct in retail and not homogenized you are not being objective.


#41

The rotations were only really similar between Mages and Warlocks. Maybe Balance Druids, too, if you ever see one.

Aside from that, the rotations in vanilla manage to be distinct despite very few abilities actually being used.

  • Druids (Balance) - Spams one ability the entire fight, not allowed to use debuffs usually. Similar to Mage and Warlock.
  • Druids (Feral) - Similar to Rogue or Warrior, by design. They’re supposed to be copies of those classes in animal form, capable of swapping between them as needed, but not capable of doing everything either class is capable of.
  • Hunter - Timing Aimed Shots and Multi-Shots between auto attacks. Nothing similar.
  • Mage - Spam Frostbolt or Fireball. Similar to Balance Druid and Warlock.
  • Paladin - Maintain self-buffs, auto attack, judgment. Nothing similar.
  • Priest (Shadow) - Spam a channeled ability, maintaining a DoT if you’re lucky. Nothing similar.
  • Rogue - Build combo points, spend on finishers. Nothing similar.
  • Shaman (Elemental) - Maintain group-buffs, spam Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning on Cooldown. Nothing similar.
  • Warlock - Spam Shadow Bolt. Similar to Balance Druid and Mage.
  • Warrior - Auto attack or get hit to build rage. Spend rage to deal more damage. Nothing similar.

Casters were the only thing similar to one another.

Now in retail, take the classes that used to be unique in their rotations. How many are still unique? None.

How many classes/specs had a DPS cooldown in vanilla?
How many classes/specs have a DPS cooldown in BfA?

How many DPS classes/specs had healing in vanilla?
How many DPS classes/specs have healing in BfA?

How many DPS classes/specs had defensive cooldowns in vanilla?
How many DPS classes/specs have defensive cooldowns in BfA?

Homogenization is a sad reality of retail’s numerous expansions, and yes, there were some similarities in the classes and specs in vanilla. That doesn’t change the fact the similarities increased while the distinctions decreased throughout the years.


(Caelle) #42

I agree and disagree with this point.

10 man during Wrath in and of themselves did not lead to what we have now class wise. 10 mans in Wrath were easy enough that you didn’t need every single tool from every spec/class to do the content.

Where I will agree with you is that when they put it on the same level as 25 man in Cata they had no choice but to spread the wealth. 10 mans became harder so these things were needed, Blizzard balanced them out and then balanced 10 man around it.

Had they left 10 man raiding as it was in Wrath, a step down, things would have been fine.


(Razaell) #43

Apparently you aren’t familiar with pvp.


#45

10 mans were added in BC right at the start with Kara.


#46

Well that was the point. Blizzard moved away from the idea of “required” classes. Instead of making you bring the priest over the druid because the priest can dispel magic and the druid can’t, they wanted you to bring the better healer.

And you CANNOT claim that there’s no difference between druids who heal very heavily on HOTs, and priests who have a well balanced mix between quick healing and preventing damage, and paladins who are desinged around strong focused healing… They’re not the same, they don’t play the same, you’re just again, not doing the hard content.


#47

Guys, I was gone from Cata to BFA, please give more specific examples and stop generalizing pls, it’s a hard read otherwise.

“Guyz, remember when they removed that thing that made us less like this and more like that when the things were changed?”

FFS

I’m trying but you gotta meet me half way.

(and yes, I can see on my own 120 the things that have changed but I dont have 12 120’s)


#48

They never made that decision, ever. Leveling was made easier because so few people were actually doing it anymore. (in Chris Fareley’s voice) FINITE PLAYERS, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, UNDERSTAND THIS CONCEPT!!! Too much of a challenge was more of a road block than a challenge. Imagine needing a group for hogger but there’s only 1 other level 10 on, and it’s a night elf in Teldrassil. THAT, combined with the fact that almost the entirety of the people playing the game were in wrath content, is why leveling had to be pushed back as a focus in the game.

Also, about those 10 mans… If they’re a problem, then ZG and AQ20 have to be too.


#49

So you agree with the vast majority of people that Ghost Crawler killed the game.
I mean, look at League, when GC joined the team, every champ remake and new champ started getting a skill shot, a cc, self heal, and maybe some type of HP shred. GC logic = “its not fair others have strengths and weaknesses.”


#50

10 mans were in vanilla.


#51

I mostly agree, which was my point. When 10-mans became popular, the next expansion had to make them equal, and thus create the requirement to have a full toolset, meaning that homogenization had to kick into high gear. 10 mans were added in Wrath, but didn’t break classes till Cata.


#52

Kara was an introduction Raid, like UBRS. While it gave better gear than UBRS equivalents, it was never the top tier raid, even at launch, since SSC/TK were released with the game.

In Wrath, 10-mans became ubiquitous in every tier as an “alternative”, not an introduction.


(Caelle) #53

They didn’t have to make them equal. They were popular in Wrath because everyone of every skill level could do them. Putting them on an equal playing field completely cut the legs out from under what made them popular to begin with.

Blizzard listened to their hardcore minority that wanted it to be equal. Those that it was originally designed for in Wrath got shoved out of the way and eventually got flung into LFR.