Where are all the casual alliance PvPers?

[Maynellus-bloodsail-buccaneers]

I haven’t played AV since early December. It just seemed like every week people were finding exploits or just new strategies to farm more honor per hour and treat it like a job. Alterac Valley was the one PvP environment in Vanilla where you could spend hours fighting in chokepoints and gathering supplies to summon giant monsters to help. It doesn’t look fun at all anymore.

I used to come here last year and just see a dozen new threads about world and BG PvP being garbage. I came back here after a month and I see the same old thing. Why do I wanna put myself through all this bad PvP?

I just login twice a week for my Ony/MC and wait for people to come to their senses and bring back 1.5 AV after all the min/max turds got their exalted rewards. It’ll be any month now…

[Celldweller-heartseeker]

@Ziryus-doomhammer

@Celldweller-heartseeker

@Redshadowz-heartseeker

Imagine if every game was premade vs premade…

The bottom 10% of premades would lose 90% of the time and so they would quit playing, forming a new bottom 10% who would lose 90% of the time and quit playing, forming a new bottom 10% who would lose 90% of the time and quit playing, until all there is left is the top team.

Now imagine if there were no premades at all, and the maps were fair… Everything would be fine.

You can have premades, but premades need to only go up against other premades. But for that to work they need something like an “elo” to match equal to equal, and a benefit for playing better competition. Otherwise no one will queue premade vs premade. Because the whole point of a premade is to gain an advantage. And premades only gain an advantage by stomping people weaker than them.

Moreover, if Blizzard actually put in the premade and solo option, alliance rankers would just exploit the solo-queue like they did in AV.

There is really no way to have solo vs solo queues. Plus even normal people want to play with their friends/guildies, because it is fun, and they shouldn’t be pitted against teams full of Marshals/Warlords.

So the question is, how do you give high-ranking premades an advantage for being an organized team, where they don’t ruin the game for everyone else.

Not everybody is like you. Many would actually try to improve rather than quit.

WoW pvp isn’t hard so it’s not a question of improving.

My face hit my palm so hard I almost fell to the ground.

[Tln-herod]

@Redshadowz-heartseeker

But if a 0 skill player were to make a premade it would generally be filled with other bad players. And a bad team in the bottom 10% of players can only win against other bad teams in the bottom 10%.

These two premises are unfounded.

The 0 skill players generally aren’t making their own premades.

Players aren’t able to sense skill and segregate themselves with that kind of accuracy.

You have absolutely no idea what the win-rate of the wort 10% of premades would be in such a scenario… so the rest of your argument is irrelevant.

[Unadara-herod]

There also isn’t a different queue for ranked play vs casual play, which has become the standard.

If you pvp for fun once in a while, your not farming for rewards, so you care more about the pvp being fun, and less about honor per hour, but you still end up facing mostly coordinated teams maximizing honor per hour.

[Tln-herod]

@Unadara-herod

There also isn’t a different queue for ranked play vs casual play, which has become the standard.

Yes, which is why this discussion is about the possibility of such a queue.

[Redshadowz-heartseeker]

@Tln-herod

The 0 skill players generally aren’t making their own premades.

Low-skill players don’t join premades because they can’t. Low-skill premades do exist, for maybe a game or two, but they get utterly destroyed by high-skill premades and give up.

Low-skill players only have the option to solo-queue because it is basically the only way for them to have fair games. And prior to this hotfix most WSG’s were pugs on both sides.

All of this proves my point, when people lose too much too badly, and when the gap in honor gains is too great, they quit playing.

Each week the PvP pool gets smaller and smaller, and the PvP’ers have to spam their guild and world chat, begging people to get 15 hk’s, while creating level 1 alts to get 15 hk’s to artificially widen the pool.

If AV didn’t exist and everyone had to play WSG, where almost every game is premades, almost everyone would quit.

Or put simply, premade vs premade causes everyone but the top premades to stop playing. The only sustainable model is pug vs pug. In large part because the Vanilla Honor System only rewards those near the top. The vast majority of players get basically nothing from PvP. The only reason most alliance continue to play AV at this point is to get rep in preparation for BWL.

In TBC arenas those at the bottom could still buy Arena gear, it just took them longer. Now imagine if in TBC, all teams below 2k rating couldn’t buy anything at all, 90% of the arena teams would have quit after the first week, and even more the week after, and the week after.

All of that aside, there are people who would play BG’s just for fun, if BG’s were fun. Pug vs pug is usually fun. Pug vs premade isn’t fun for anyone. And alliance losing 95% of AV’s isn’t fun for alliance pugs. So even the people who would PvP even if they got nothing out of it, are losing interest because of how terrible PvP is.

Plus the super-long horde queue times cause massive numbers of horde to camp FP’s and gank in 50+ zones between games like in phase 2. The current state of Classic PvP is absolutely abysmal, and is only going to get worse.

It shouldn’t be this way, and I’ve never seen it this bad. I was amazed that Blizzard’s hotfix was somehow able to make things even worse.

[Ziryus-doomhammer (Ziryus)]

@Celldweller-heartseeker

@Ziryus-doomhammer

@Celldweller-heartseeker

@Redshadowz-heartseeker

Imagine if every game was premade vs premade…

The bottom 10% of premades would lose 90% of the time and so they would quit playing, forming a new bottom 10% who would lose 90% of the time and quit playing, forming a new bottom 10% who would lose 90% of the time and quit playing, until all there is left is the top team.

Now imagine if there were no premades at all, and the maps were fair… Everything would be fine.

You can have premades, but premades need to only go up against other premades. But for that to work they need something like an “elo” to match equal to equal, and a benefit for playing better competition. Otherwise no one will queue premade vs premade. Because the whole point of a premade is to gain an advantage. And premades only gain an advantage by stomping people weaker than them.

Moreover, if Blizzard actually put in the premade and solo option, alliance rankers would just exploit the solo-queue like they did in AV.

There is really no way to have solo vs solo queues. Plus even normal people want to play with their friends/guildies, because it is fun, and they shouldn’t be pitted against teams full of Marshals/Warlords.

So the question is, how do you give high-ranking premades an advantage for being an organized team, where they don’t ruin the game for everyone else.

Not everybody is like you. Many would actually try to improve rather than quit.

WoW pvp isn’t hard so it’s not a question of improving.

My face hit my palm so hard I almost fell to the ground.

Because of your epic realization that WoW PvP isn’t hard?

[Kanmuk-grobbulus]

He absolutely can’t justify the random math he was using.

However, his basic premise is something to worry about.

People aren’t going to WSG if they don’t get rewarded for it - usually via HpH, rep or “fun”.

If PUG-stompings get so bad that the most common reward mechanisms are no longer reasonably viable, PUGs will drop out of the system (as an anecdotal example, I won’t PUG in this environment).

Wihout enough PUGs, then the “premading advantage” starts to diminish and their viability of obtaining rewards comes into question.

I have no idea if that will happen, what the hph math will look like over time, etc, but there are definitely risks in letting competitive imbalance get out of hand. Which is why many modern games use some form of matchmaking, even in their “unranked” brackets (e.g. LOL).

[Archdruid-bloodsail-buccaneers]

The casual alliance pvpers are all dead at that bg graveyard you’re farming/griefing, can’t you see?

[Bigwillie-stalagg]

they will be beat out of the que til the rankers stop

welcome to the glorious wsg meta MUAHAHAH

maybe next week they will stop ghosting after they lose mid and try to play flags

[Shadows-grobbulus]

Correct, more and more Alliance are quitting every week. That’s why Horde queues keep increasing.

[Ìmmortal-azgalor]

They all quit because winning a pug AV is literally impossible. I see 30 man average premades loose all the time. The map is so ludicrously imbalance it takes 30 good players to overcome the horde defensive advantages.

[Yloh-kromcrush]

@Shadows-grobbulus

That’s why Horde queues keep increasing.

they literally spend 30 mins farming the graveyard.

[Miley-rattlegore]

Anyone who had the slightest interest in PvP rolled Horde because all the youtube videos and twitch streamers told them Horde was better for PvP. People on Alliance that DO want to try the epic “Classic PvP” go into Warsong, get farmed for 30 minutes by a Horde premade, get MC’d out of the portal so the Horde team can get fresh people to farm or just to be douches, and then those people never touch PvP again. Also, a majority of Alliance are on PvE servers with no interest in PvP at all.

[Jtgam-pagle]

Maybe if horde didn’t play with a complete scorched earth mentality, more casuals would play. Your queue times would be shorter. Also, there is no need to drag the game out for 30 minutes. That’s actually just inflating the queue time even more.

[Demoneye-bloodsail-buccaneers]

If I cared about PvP why would I go alliance? It is the pve faction.

I used to enjoy casual PvP every once in awhile, but every match feeling like jerkin it with whisky junk made me quit after getting my exalted.

[Consensus-hyjal]

Bonus honor if they win after 30 minutes. I don’t blame horde for the way they play the map. It’s on Blizzard for this map design.

I do get annoyed with the arrogance from some horde players who believe it’s their pro skill winning games and not a map designed so that they should rarely, if ever, lose.

[Gaap-earthfury]

Is the 110-119 bracket that competitive?

[Tln-herod]

@Redshadowz-heartseeker

Low-skill players don’t join premades because they can’t.

And so your argument collapses under it’s own contradiction.

@Redshadowz-heartseeker

Low-skill premades do exist, for maybe a game or two, but they get utterly destroyed by high-skill premades and give up.

This premise has no foundation.

@Redshadowz-heartseeker

Low-skill players only have the option to solo-queue

This is incorrect.

@Redshadowz-heartseeker

Or put simply, premade vs premade causes everyone but the top premades to stop playing.

I rejected your premises, so this argument has no basis.

[Tln-herod]

@Kanmuk-grobbulus

However, his basic premise is something to worry about.

I rejected some of his premises, because they have no foundation.