Zovaal is basically a god and anyone under an Eternal One are practically children in comparison.
Because he ādefeatedā the scourge and remember, they did not know that he was a mutineer and a traitor at that point. Not even his men knew that he was the one who ordered his own ships to be burned until wrath where their spirits find out of the true thanks to the Alliance and Argent Crusade. For all they knew at the time, Arthasā story that a band of evil trolls and ogres burning down their ships was true. Just because the audience knows the meta story, that does not mean the characters inside the story do. Otherwise there wouldnāt be a thing like dramatic irony.
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They are not mutually exclusive.
What exactly are you looking forward to? The canon facts? Well, you chose the right Poster to look forward to, because I am all about the canon facts.
The Alliance ruled Lordaeron. Their chain of command was misguided at best. They led their people to ruin and Undeath. The Undead that were betrayed by the Alliance rule the land they claimed in life and in death. Even the last living Menethil backed their claim in Before the Storm.
You were looking forward to it. I am happy to oblige.
Anduin outright lays Arthasās crimes on the feet of the Alliance, and Calia supports the Forsaken claim to Lordaeron, as the last living heir to the Menethil throne. That isnāt my Horde bias - that is Calia and Anduin.
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They are mutually exclusive. You try to shift responsibility for Lordaeronās history onto the Alliance but simultaneously deny the Alliance that historical legacy by claiming it lies with the Horde.
Either the Alliance has historical claim or it does not. Your argument of āOnly to the bad parts that I can sneer at them over but not to the other parts that come with that baggageā wonāt fly, because anyone can see that youāre being completely arbitrary.
Like, youāre applying the legacy of the Menethil dynasty to the Alliance in an effort to tie Arthas specifically to them but then simultaneously trying to use Caliaās Menethil name as something to prop up Forsaken legitimacy. Itās actually remarkable your brain doesnāt collapse into itself from the naked contradiction.
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Full disclosure: I am 110% willing to put all the responsibility for Arthas onto the Alliance. All the responsibility for Garithos and Blackmoore too. Completely on the Alliance, no disputes from me whatsoever.
Just as long as the corollary to those facts are acknowledged, which is that the Alliance has historical claim to Lordaeron.
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No. They are not.
Yes. For the things their leadership did to them while under the rule of the Alliance. Of course.
āHistorical legacyā is a vague notion. Even the Alliance High King admits Arthas, the Prince of Lordaeron, is part of the Allianceās history and legacy. And even a living Calia - when approached about her claims for Lordaeron, admits the kingdom should belong to its people.
Your headcanon opinions mean nothing, when the heir to the throne of Lordaeron and the Alliance High King contradict you.
So you want a museum in Stormwind? Fine by me.
I know that the character limit is annoying but you didnāt need to type that many words just to say āNuh-uh!ā
I want some kind of rhetorical consistency from you instead of your insufferable but simultaneously impressive ability to doublethink.
Your problem seems to be with the lore and the canon - and that I speak it.
Good. It is a step further than some Blue Posters.
It isnāt even a thing to argue. It just simply is.
Agreed. Lordaeronās legacy belongs to the Alliance, warts and all, which is why itās so important for the Alliance to reclaim and rejuvenate Lordaeron as penance for its past mistakes.
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And when the Alliance tried to invoke any blood rite or lineage claims, the one person who would fit the bill disagreed with them, and she aligns with my thinking on the subject of who should claim Lordaeron.
I guess the Alliance better just use force instead of reason or logic or legacy claims. Which seems to be what Turalyon has in mind.
Arthas is the one who would have maximum blood rite or lineage claim. You just spent hours arguing that blood rite and lineage was a fatal flaw of the Alliance that led to Lordaeronās fall but now youāre appealing to it as a sacrosanct element of legitimacy because there is no internal consistency to your reasoning aside from āAlliance bad and stinky, Horde good and pureā
Turalyon has legacy claims. He is a noble of Lordaeron.
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Also, again, reminder, Anduin reclaimed Lordaeron after stating āthe time has come to reclaim what is rightfully oursā and he did so with Caliaās blessing.
People forget that BtS happened before BfA.
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If you read Before the Storm, it is the Alliance bigwigs that broach the subject of Calia being the heir to Lordaeron. It isnāt just me.
Again - your headcanon does not fit with the actual canon.
You seem to be arguing against Genn and Turalyon and Anduin and Calia.
I did read BtS, and it wasnāt āAlliance bigwigsā per se, it was specifically Anduin asking for clarification as to her intentions because if she wanted to she could easily rally the humans of the Alliance, who are predominantly from Lordaeron, under her banner and that could cause political complications. Her intent was to reassure him that she didnāt have any intention of doing that. Genn and Turalyon were not involved in the discussion at all.
Furthermore, Calia did entertain the idea of reclaiming Lordaeron under the Allianceās banner, and even tested Anduin on the possibility of doing so. It was actually part of this very scene youāre referencing.
See, I actually did read the book. Unlike you, who just picked up a couple of out of context passages from Deathisfinal.
And again, itās all moot, because the scene youāre referencing happens early in the book, long before the Gathering and long before BfA, which saw Anduin explicitly declare that the Alliance has legitimate claim to Lordaeron and backing that claim up effectively with force of arms. Calia had no objections to him doing this, and indeed he did it with her blessing, as they remain close friends to this day.
And this, my friend, is canon.
So yeah. Iām fine with you laying all sorts of nasty things at the Allianceās feet on the basis of the legacy of the Kingdom of Lordaeron. Iāll even agree with you on more of them than you think. But that requires an implicit acknowledgement of the Allianceās historical legacy in Lordaeron and its present day claim to Lordaeron based on that historical legacy, which you are in fact agreeing to, whether you realize it or not.
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Historical legacy is a vague term.
The Alliance has had a deleterious impact on Lordaeron. Even in Quelthalas, the Dead Scar stands as a testament to the legacy of the Alliance. Arthas, the Alliance Prince, is part of the Allianceās historical legacy of destroying the Sunwell.
I donāt think that historical legacy is anything to clamor for in the present or the future.
Incorrect. The denizens of the land disagree. The woman who the High King of the Alliance saw as the legitimate heir disagreed.
Utter nonsense.
That is hilarious. If you want to believe I agree, that is some kind of crazy. I am almost envious. It must be nice to just invent things that are not there.
I disagree completely. The Allianceās historical legacy of destruction and Undeath does not equate to future claims. If you agree with that, good.
I am glad you agree with me. I mean, you say we are in agreement, and I clearly said the Alliance has no claims. So, I am glad you agree.
But we are both working off old lore. We can only discuss the build up - not the current state. Did the Alliance vacate Lordaeron, like they did Zandalar? Or did they maintain holdings, like in Tirigarde Keep? Voss and Calia took the long way to Org - but that seems to acknowledge they hold at least some of Lordaeron.
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Come on man it took you 20 minutes to type that?
Hey I am trying to do mission tables too. I have to put my phone down now and then.
My steak got cold too. I need to go eat that.
Hey my pally got 239 shoulders from the vault to replace his 213.
I cant be the only person that does WoW chores and Forum posts. Especially on Tuesdays. Excuse me if I donāt answer fast enough.
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He canāt reclaim something he never had. This just makes him a jerk, trying to appeal to rednecks and warmongers and āwhite trashā within stormwinds society.
The Alliance is not and has never been a sovereign state. It is little more than an agreement between sovereign states. When talking about alliance ownership, you are talking about ownership of the individual member states. Nine times out of ten when āthe allianceā claims territory, they are claiming it for stormwind, the current leader of the alliance. The āallianceā itself owns nothing.
The alliance never owned any part of Lordaeron. The king of Lordaeron, by the power invested in him through the will and sovereignty of the people of Lordaeron ruled Lordaeron. Now that sovereignty rests with the people of Lordaeron. The Forsaken. Administered by the Deathguard.
The king also governed the alliance which by the time of wc3 was a heavily depleted organization. When he was killed he stopped governing the alliance which died as a result.
At some point between wc3 and wow the āAllianceā was reformed under the banner of stormwind. Stormwind at best was a dependency of Lordaeron and probably owes it lot of money, so time to pay up dudeā¦
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Cenarius mated with rocks. He was absolutely problematic.