When did Arthas [not Lich King] die?

Lore Story Forum
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With the new Anduin model images dubbed Chains of Domination Anduin, it appears he’s become a Death Knight, or a new Lich King, or something. Eventually, we’ll probably get to know a bit more about what he is now and whether he did it willingly ala Arthas, or it was forced upon him somehow, or whatever. Regardless, someone asked in another thread about “curing” a Death Knight, which kind of made me wonder about other Death Knights/etc.

Throughout most of the Death Knight campaign I remember rezzing dead folks to become Horsemen (and women but the Four Horsepeople just sounds like a Centaur band). That’s how Arthas created more Death Knights as well.

Except Arthas didn’t become a Death Knight that way (at least not how I understood the story). He drew Excalibur - err Frostmourne - from the stone - err ice - and slew Mal’Ganis, then wandered off into Northrend and next we know he’s a Death Knight in new armor (made of saronite, the blood of Yogg-Saron, can’t be good for sanity).

He does his evil villain thing, slaughtering folks, then finds out the Lich King is weakening, the Frozen Throne is cracked (because Ner’zhul threw Frostmourne into the block of ice to begin with) and Ner’zhul is leaking… Ner’zhul juice? I don’t know. There’s some fighting and other stuff but basically Arthas rushes to the Lich King.

Instead of putting some ice in the cracked ice, he decides he needs Ner’zhul in him (phrasing), breaks the ice and puts on the magic hat. Then he sits on the throne and takes a nap. While he’s sleeping he … consumes… Ner’zhul (not even going there) and the last of his humanity. Nap time over, he decides to cut out his own heart, because… duh.

Then the Lich King gets beaten up by 10/25 murder hobos, Frostmourne is shattered, and … at some point his magic hat falls off. Not really sure when - even the fight and cinematic aren’t clear - he’s floating in the air wearing it and it’s just off when the cinematic starts. I’m guessing it’s when he falls back down after being haunted by a slew of ghosts that were hanging out in Frostmourne.

Regardless, sans magic hat, the blue frosty eyes disappear roughly when he sees his dad. Maybe it just took a minute due to a possible concussion that was strong enough to knock off the hat - it took Sylvanas a lot of effort to rip that thing off Bolvar - so were it not for the whole dying thing I suspect he likely had some brain damage.

Then Bolvar puts on the magic hat which apparently has some sort of voice modulator thing because his voice immediately changes to the same as the old Lich King. Also it has built-in blue frost eyes. Now, he’s the new Lich King - fire AND ice - minus Frostmourne that somehow saved the original Ner’zhul Lich King from leaking - plus some new weapon (???).

Clearly, removing your heart isn’t a good idea for … you know … living. So is that the moment Arthas “died” or was it earlier at some random point in time? Like when he grabbed Frostmourne? Or when he put on the hat? Or when he consumed Ner’zhul? Or did he magically “live” without a heart and it was later?
Like when he got brain damage from murder hobos beating him for a chance at his horse? Or did he die when Frostmourne got split into pieces for some unknown reason?

I ask this because the frosty blue eyes thing is apparently just a feature for the hat, like the voice modulator, and Bolvar didn’t die when Sylvanas yoinked it off his head. In fact, Bolvar went back to his … well, not quite normal, but pre-magic hat state. So doesn’t that mean we could just knock off Anduin’s magic hat (and maybe break Shalamourne back into a couple of swords) and he’s back to normal?

I mean that seems like a bit of a cop-out, but … there doesn’t seem to be much of a reason why that isn’t the case. And while it took Sylvanas a lot of effort to steal Bolvar’s hat - it’s not until the Jailer cast Power Infusion on her that she could defeat the Lich King. But 10/25 murder hobos managed to do it - and after the item level squish their max ilvl would’ve been like 35 - I’m already like 6 times that. So maybe 5-6 of us could walk in there and rock’em sock’em robots him and all the sudden he’s back to normal? I mean maybe with some brain damage, but mostly normal.

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I believe he died during the time he was wandering the frozen zones of Northrend. Just like any other human being he fell to hypothermia but by that time he was already imbued with the power of the Lich King and his necromancy magic so he became a Death Knight.
That’s just me speculating. No clue if there is in fact an actual moment already established.

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Pretty sure he became undead shortly, if not immediately, after he picked up Frostmourne.

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Canonically I think it’s said Arthas became undead when Frostmourne took his soul. So technically he died as soon as he took up the Mourneblade.

As far as I know there is no such thing as a ‘living’ Death Knight, but then if anyone was going to have Light shenanigans revoke their undeath it would probably be Anduin.

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Thank you all! While only 3 replies (so far) it was only about 15 minutes for folks to pretty much unanimously say he became “undead” right around the time of looting Frostmourne. So, some reason to believe that’s legit.

Which means just stealing Anduin’s outfit wouldn’t (likely) make him snap out of it and go back to normal without some sort of deus ex machina.

I suppose unless it’s hypothermia that did Arthas in - I don’t know how cold Torghast is but there are forges and stuff so I suspect he’s not at risk.

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Assuming that the Jailer and Sylvanas replicated what was done to Arthas, Anduin will likely retain self-awareness due to his soul being lodged inside his new “mourneblade.”

That’s why Arthas was far more self-aware than most other Death Knights who served under him as the Lich King—he was quite literally carrying around his own soul within Frostmourne. Meaning, the now-corrupted Shalamayne would need to be destroyed to free Anduin’s soul, if he is to be saved.

Personally, I’d rather whale into him Lich King-style first so that he stays dead.

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I always thought it was after he beat Illidan, when he cut out his heart. Not sure how long this happens after he gets Frostmourne, though.

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So, supposedly the heart cutting thing happens after he wakes up after his hostile merger with Ner’zhul. That’s a lot after he grabs Frostmourne.

I’m not saying you’re wrong - it’s part of why I asked this. I mean, excluding the whole “Azeroth has magic so we can basically do whatever we want” aspect, being sans heart would normally mean he’s not living.

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OOH OOH I KNOW THIS ONE! how much time it takes for you to grow a stubble like that? boom, there is your answer.

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Which is probably most likely. He’s never really considered or called an undead until after he cut his own heart out. And if he was when he picked up Frostmourne, you think his own father would’ve noticed…well the decayed flesh and rotting smell of a walking corpse :smiley_cat:

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Does it have to be full-face stubble or just goatee-esque stubble?

I think this matters to Anduin - he’s kinda young. And even if he weren’t, I won’t lie, I’m 35 and I really don’t grow in a beard very well. I can do the goatee thing, but my facial hair grows in kinda like Wolverine. That sounds cool if you think “Oh, Wolverine is pretty cool” but then when you realize you’re not basically invulnerable nor do you have cool metal claws… you’re only left with somewhat white trashy looking mutton chops.

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The Arthas novel hints that:

  1. Arthas technically died when Frostmorne took his soul.
  2. It was a rather long process to transform him fully into a Death Knight.

Also, keep in mind that Northrend is cold. It would have kept him from decomposing. That, and have we ever heard of any DK smelling like decomp? Outside of Forsaken ones?

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This is why i said his body was alive for just enough time for him to grow a stubble, that or he grew that before grabbing the sword.

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The Warcraft 3 death knights were never “killed” and the manual specifically states the Lich King offered them Immortality(whether it was the undead kind of immortality or regular type of immortality was never mentioned).

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There’s no such thing as “Regular Immortality.” Regular people get old and die. Immortality has to stem from some kind of intervening power.

I tend to think that when that power is Death, then the being in question is functionally Undead, regardless of whether or not they’ve ever gone through the process of dying and being raised.

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Just because a little blurb in an RTS manual doesn’t specifically say that the units became Undead, that doesn’t mean that they did not. In game they were still considered Undead units that benefited from Death Coil and Unholy Aura.

So no, I don’t think the Lich King bestowed any kind of immortality that didn’t come via undeath.

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Or that is just a gameplay thing in the same way Frostmorne original did chaos/fel magic. Or how Acolyte are also undead.

http://classic.battle.net/war3/undead/units/deathknight.shtml

The Lich King offered them untold power in exchange for their services and loyalty. The weary, vengeful warriors accepted his dark pact, and although they retained their humanity.

The fact both manual and this website mentions them “maintaining their humanity” makes me think they were never undead.

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I would say when he took up Frostmourne and wandered Northrend. That’s when Frostmourne ate his soul and after, Ner’zhul ripped away the last shreds of his humanity.

I assume he meant ‘being alive and not dying’ versus ‘being undead and immortal’. Not that ‘you just are immortal’. He prefaced it specifically as a gift by the Lich King, so clearly it was given as an intervening power.

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The undead units in the undead faction were never undead?

Whatever you want to believe Zerde, I’ve long since come to the understanding that arguing with you is like talking to a brick wall.

But let me ask you this - if that were the case and then whatever became of them? There are no ‘living’ death knight’s in WoW. It’s not like with most of the second generation death knights who were destroyed by the Alliance or fled to Outland. I posit to you that if somehow they did not die and become undead when they first swore themselves to the Lich King in Warcraft 3 that they certainly became undead over time and proximity to the Scourge’s power.

Otherwise I can’t think of a reason why we would have never seen one of your ‘living’ death knight’s in WoW.

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We’ve seen several kinds of immortality: Bronze Dragons made Nelves immortal with time magic. Various highborne groups have achieved immortality through massive infusions of arcane magic. And of course, Undeath, where the soul is bound to the body in spite of it being “dead” by any natural definition.

This is what I mean by “power.” There has to be some kind of energy behind it. In this context, the Lich King is not a “power,” he’s just a dude.

So I guess the question is, what kind of immortality do you imagine the Lich King has the ability to offer other than undeath? This is the context where “Regular Immortality” is not an answer. The underlying mechanics need to be provided.

I would suggest, again, that any Immortality the Lich King offers is obviously fueled by Death Magic and is therefore functionally identical to undeath.

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